'80s Movie Montage
Breaking down our favorite decade of flicks. Hosted by Anna Keizer and Derek Dehanke.
'80s Movie Montage
The Color of Money
In this episode, Anna and Derek question how Eddie and Vincent never ran into each other before, the plausibility of relaxing in an unbuttoned flannel shirt, and much more during their discussion of the Paul Newman-Tom Cruise two-hander The Color of Money (1986).
Connect with '80s Movie Montage on Facebook, Bluesky or Instagram! It's the same handle for all three... @80smontagepod.
Anna Keizer and Derek Dehanke are the co-hosts of ‘80s Movie Montage. The idea for the podcast came when they realized just how much they talk – a lot – when watching films from their favorite cinematic era. Their wedding theme was “a light nod to the ‘80s,” so there’s that, too. Both hail from the Midwest but have called Los Angeles home for several years now. Anna is a writer who received her B.A. in Film/Video from Columbia College Chicago and M.A. in Film Studies from Chapman University. Her dark comedy short She Had It Coming was an Official Selection of 25 film festivals with several awards won for it among them. Derek is an attorney who also likes movies. It is a point of pride that most of their podcast episodes are longer than the movies they cover.
Cool excellence is not about excellence. It's about becoming some student. You gotta be a student a human move. See all the grades that I know of to a man. We're students a human moves. Students of human moves.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's my area of excellence.
SPEAKER_03:Hello and welcome to 80s movie montage. This is Derek.
SPEAKER_02:And this is Anna.
SPEAKER_03:And that was Tom Cruise as Vincent Loria and Paul Newman as Fast Eddie Felsen from 1986's The Color of Money.
SPEAKER_02:Our first Paul Newman film.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02:But as I was going through his filmography, I was like, you know what? Because I think in the last episode, I was like, oh, I don't know how many chances we'll have to talk about him. I think we could definitely have a couple more chances.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Especially if I push those films because I really love Paul Newman.
SPEAKER_03:He's great. I mean, he's he's incredible.
SPEAKER_02:He's incredible.
SPEAKER_03:And he doesn't often, or he did not often have um a situation where he's reprising a role for a sequel.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So totally. That was that was um.
SPEAKER_02:There are so many roles though where he, man, I would have loved a lot more sequels to so many of his characters.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. That's why he didn't do it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. In any case, the color of money. I'm actually really glad that we're finally covering this is so this isn't to be fair, a film that I know well. I've only seen like scenes. Yeah. Never seen the entire thing. Um but again, a common refrain for me at least will be how much I love Paul Newman. And I just like really wanted to finally do this movie. So let's dive in. You mentioned, I think, the year, 1986.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:And so this this is also really interesting because as far as writing credits go, you know, you I can tell that I've known this about you, that you really love the film The Hustler.
SPEAKER_03:I think it's a great movie. And it um obviously is the the first that we see of Fast Eddie, and it was from what 1961. So it it it's a very younger, different version of Fast Eddie, similar in a lot of ways in terms of like his arrogance and energy that you see with Vincent. But um, yeah, I I like that that's a great like I like a lot of movies with George C. Scott. So you have George C. Scott, Jackie Gleason, Paul Newman. It's an incredible.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's put it that way, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's an amazing movie.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So the reason why I bring up the Hustler is because as far as writing credits go, both films are based on novels.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Both written by the same gentleman, Walter Tebis.
SPEAKER_03:And they tried, they went in a different, slightly different direction for the color of money uh in the novel. Minnesota Fats, who's played by Jackie Gleason, was gonna be in it. Yeah. But they they tried to like get him to get a few.
SPEAKER_02:Gleason didn't feel like it was a He didn't think it made sense. Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say, and I I knew as I was about to say it, it wouldn't come across the way I wanted to. Like I was gonna say it wasn't a juicy enough role, which makes it sound like he I mean he was he was a significant character in the hustler.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh that would have been amazing, though, to have had I would have maybe just a little cameo, just a little something.
SPEAKER_03:That's exactly what he I don't think he wanted, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I know, I know. But in any case, so Tevis, um, I mean, he passed away before this film was made. He passed away in 1984, so a couple years prior. And as far as his, you know, IMDB credits go, he mostly has them all based on the novels that he had written. So we have The Hustler, we have The Man Who Fell to Earth. This I didn't realize. Uh that TV series that just came out a few years ago, The Queen's Gambit.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I didn't realize that either.
SPEAKER_02:Did not know that that was his novel, but it was. And then also very recently they did a TV version of The Man Who Fell to Earth. Okay. So again, based on his work.
SPEAKER_03:Aliens. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:So Richard Price, though, he is credited with the screenplay. And this is, you know, I should bring up the other one too, because it's not gonna come up in any other place. This film is Oscar nominated and Oscar winning. We'll get to the one that got the win. So a total of four nominations with one win from those nominations. Price was nominated for one of them. He had best adapted screenplay. And the other Oscar that I'm gonna bring it up now, because or I should say nomination. Uh bring it up now because it's not gonna really come up anywhere else. Is it got I was a little surprised. Best art direction set decoration.
SPEAKER_04:Huh.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not sure what the other candidates were that year.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But I guess I I guess I can see.
SPEAKER_03:Um Dumpy Smoky Pool Halls.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I guess they made it real realistic. Uh I did read that they did actually quite a bit of filming in Chicago in like real locations.
SPEAKER_03:Even the tournament at the end was in like the grand ballroom at Navy Pier.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, was it? Oh, I didn't know that. That's fun. Uh yeah. So kind of an interesting nomination there. But Price, so he is very much still working. He has had uh some interesting credits and more recently has really moved into television, I would say. But among some of his early works, Streets of Gold, it didn't even occur to me that there would be a writing credit for videos, but he has a writing credit for Michael Jackson's Bad.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Isn't that fun? So is that uh several films Sea of Love, Night in the City, Mad Dog in Glory, Kiss of Death. Okay, Clockers.
SPEAKER_03:Clockers is a really good book that was also made into a movie, and I think it was a Spike Lee movie.
SPEAKER_02:I believe you're right.
SPEAKER_03:And I mean, it's an amazing book. Harvey Kaitel's in it, like I I expected more.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's a bummer when that happens. Ransom, the 2000 shaft, and then more recently, although this is already a show that's been off the air for a while, uh, he wrote on The Wire.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, five episodes of The Wire, which is like up there with you know some of the best TV shows ever made. Yes. If it's a TV show, it was like an HBO show. So I don't know. It's like not fair to compare it to like Network.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like any, any like I think this also was a HBO. We watched it for like what the first or second season, The Deuce.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:He wrote on The Deuce, and then we did. I think this is also HBO. He must have some kind of relationship with HBO. He also wrote on that mini-series, The Outsider, which was a Stephen King work.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:All right, moving on to director. Crazy that we are bringing up Martin Scorsese for a second time this season. It had been a while prior to us talking about after hours, which please go check that one out. Um, that was super fun. We did that actually with some very special guests, Lisa and Dustin. So please go see that episode or listen to it. But yeah, second Scorsese film of the season.
SPEAKER_03:This feels like a Scorsese movie in a way that After Hours did not, but that's the thing about After Hours.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um I I agree with you. This does feel like more of a Scorsese film. It's interesting because like I, you know, in looking through notes about the movie, everybody talked about, you know, oh, great direction. Of course, it's Scorsese, he's a great director. But I don't know, when you have an actor like Paul Newman and even a very young Tom Cruise, yeah, I feel like you kind of just let them do their thing. But yeah. Of course, you know, he's he's an excellent director. We did talk about him not that long ago, but you know, I don't know when the next time is that we're gonna talk about him. We could do, I guess, the The King of Comedy at some point, but that's maybe about it. So let's go through some of his credits early in his career. I mean, I would venture that there's not a single fucking film on this list that everybody listening has not heard of, if not love and know well. So we have Mean Streets, Taxi Driver.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:He gets his first Oscar nomination for Raging Bull, which we covered, oh boy, season two, I think.
SPEAKER_03:20 years ago.
SPEAKER_02:So go check that one out. As mentioned, he did King of Comedy, which we could do at some point. Also, as mentioned, he did After Hours, which we covered very recently. So this is fun because he kind of reteams with price because he is the director of Michael Jackson's Bad. So he did that. Fun. He gets his next Oscar nom for uh I should clarify because he has been nominated in different categories. He got best director nomination for The Last Temptation of Christ. He goes on to do Goodfellows, where he gets double nominations, best adapted screenplay and best director. He gets another best adapted screenplay for The Age of Innocence. I wonder how many people realize like that he does like a fair amount of writing on and probably a lot of it uncredited on his moms.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think people just identify him as a director for the most part.
SPEAKER_02:I think so. Uh he directed Casino, he gets another best director nomination for Gangs of New York. Probably these two back-to-back, uh Gangs of New York and The Aviator are my two favorite.
SPEAKER_03:Gangs of New York is my favorite of his just because of Daniel Day Lewis's performance as The Butcher. Sure. Like that movie is my favorite because that might be like my favorite character out of a movie of all time. Like it's not even Daniel Day Lewis.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so I'm going to make you He turns into this other guy.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna make you make a Sophie's choice.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Between Bill the Butcher and Gings of New York, or Doc Holliday and Tombstone.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, Doc Holliday is super cool, but I'm Bill the Butcher is an overall more interesting, compelling character.
SPEAKER_02:Wow, you even hesitate.
SPEAKER_03:No. No, it's that it's that good.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So Scorsese, he gets another best director nom for the aviator. Finally, finally, finally, ridiculously overlooked and overdue, even with all these nominations. He finally gets best director win for the departed.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you won't watch that ever again, huh?
SPEAKER_02:No, it is so depressing. So depressing. I can't with that movie.
SPEAKER_03:It's no requiem for a dream, but it's not also like very uplifting.
SPEAKER_02:I do love Nicholson's performance in that film.
SPEAKER_03:He's so like um like twisted. Like there's this interview where Matt Damon is talking about early on when Nicholson like shoots a couple people on like some beach, and he says, But what if you just leave the camera rolling and I say, She fell funny? And then what if you keep it rolling? Like it's just he has kept on going with like how to make this a more depraved character.
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, he and I I have brought this up before, but I remember so clearly when he won minutes before he actually was announced as the winner, knew he won. Yeah. Because it was Spielberg, Coppola, and Lucas who were presenting the award. Yeah. That's why I'm always like, come on, you people know. You you all know who's winning because they would not have done that for anyone else, I think. That's just me. Maybe I'm overthinking it. But he does Shutter Island, he gets another best director and best pitcher, so he produces on Hugo. He gets another best director and best pitcher nomination for The Wolf of Wall Street. I mean, now just everything that he does. Uh, he gets another best director and best pitcher nomination for The Irishman. And then most recently, he again got best director and best pitcher nominations for Killers of the Flower Moon.
SPEAKER_03:I'm gonna say something controversial and say that I preferred the original version of Silence over his version of Silence. Even though his version, from what I understand, is actually closer to the book that it was based on.
SPEAKER_02:Look, he is one of cinema's all-time greatest directors. And I even though his particular type of material that he gravitates towards isn't what I gravitate towards, by and large, he is phenomenal. And not only has he done so much in in terms of like what he has contributed to cinema and film history, his uh advocacy for film history, film preservation is like I I hope others, I know like Tarantino is also somebody who does a lot of that, and I brought this up before, but we're like, we need more people like that.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, he talked a lot of trash about like Marvel and comic book movies, yeah, but he's not totally wrong.
SPEAKER_02:I don't care.
SPEAKER_03:He's not whatever. I'm not gonna feel real bad. Like every they all, it's all okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's all okay. I'm all about like you know, we were recently talking about some TV shows that had gotten canceled, and I was just sad because I was like, whether or not they deserve the cancellation. I was like, that's just sad to me because jobs are going away. Like, I'm always like, hey, more films, more jobs.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So in any case, uh, he's tremendous, and I just wanted a chance, because again, it'll probably be a minute before we would talk about him again.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:To say that he we are all incredibly, incredibly fortunate to have been living in a lifetime with Martin Scorsese and the work that he's done.
SPEAKER_03:We do one of those filler episodes where we just talk about like our favorite directors from the 80s and then talk about episodes that we've already like covered the movies for.
SPEAKER_02:Filler episode. Okay, so just to say really quickly for the rest of the people behind the scenes, a lot of familiar names because Scorsese is incredibly loyal to his to the people he collaborates with. So we are going to a little bit go through these people somewhat quickly. Starting with Michael Bajas, who was a cinematographer on this. He has passed. He passed in 2017.
SPEAKER_03:Was there any nomination for for the cinematography?
SPEAKER_02:Uh no.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Wait, no, I'm wrong. Oh. Am I wrong? No. No, I'm not wrong.
SPEAKER_03:There were I mean, I don't know how how far you can go with just like beautifully shot games of billiards, but there was some cool stuff that you saw.
SPEAKER_02:There was some cool stuff. I mean, both him and the editor that we're gonna talk about, you know, two people who are at who were and are at the top of their games. So visually, the film's very striking. Yeah. I mean, sorry for the pun. But uh very and and no, the four so just to get them out of the way real quick, the four nominations uh mentioned that it was best adapted screenplay, and then we also had the best art direction set decoration. We have best supporting actress.
SPEAKER_03:Her only nomination for uh Mary Elizabeth.
SPEAKER_02:We'll get her, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Master Antonio?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, good job. All right, and then I I don't know why I was like trying to uh be coy about the last one, but best actor. So we'll get to that.
SPEAKER_03:For Tom Cruise.
SPEAKER_02:How dare you! Although there's anyway, we'll get to that. So DP Michael Bajas uh had an incredible career. He started in German entertainment. Um, so he has some credits that are specific to that country's cinema, but some of his credits include, and I mean, this is certainly we've talked about him a number of times.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The marriage of Maria Braun. He was the DP on After Hours. We also brought him up for broadcast news that we did with Jennifer. Please go check them one out. That was his first Oscar nomination. Okay. That was for best cinematography, of course. He did, so he he partnered with Scorsese quite a bit. He did Last Temptation of Christ, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. We also brought him up uh just earlier this year again for Working Girl. All right. So he's come up a lot this season. He gets another Best Cinematography Oscar nomination for The Fabulous Baker Boys. He shoots Scoodfillas, he does postcards from the edge.
SPEAKER_03:What a dramatic title. Such a dramatic title.
SPEAKER_02:Postcards from the edge?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's based on the book.
SPEAKER_03:Very dramatic.
SPEAKER_02:Very dramatic. Uh, I love that he did, and again, I will always call it Bram Stoker's Dracula.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So he did that one. That movie's really grown on me. It's just so fun.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I appreciate it not because it is a particularly great movie, but it is a fun watch.
SPEAKER_02:It is so fucking entertaining, regardless of, yeah. So he shoots The Age of Innocence, Quiz Show, Outbreak, Air Force One, Primary Colors. I mean, these films. The Legend of Bagger Vance, he gets his last nomination. It's it's a bummer to me that he didn't win for this. He got the nomination for Gangs of New York. But it is a gorgeous film.
SPEAKER_03:I I don't want to put you on the spot, but you know what won that year instead. I don't know. Because that that was a pretty striking film.
SPEAKER_02:It was, yeah. Something's gotta give. And then uh among like his last credits, The Departed. Okay. So okay. Before we get to editing, because I was kind of mentioning them back to back, let's talk a little bit about music.
SPEAKER_03:Man. Um so the music isn't like the Robbie Robertson as the composer isn't responsible for the soundtrack.
SPEAKER_02:No, he he did arrange it.
SPEAKER_03:That son of a bitch.
SPEAKER_02:So his big thing is that he was one of the band members from the band.
SPEAKER_03:The band. The band called the band.
SPEAKER_02:The band called the band. So definitely a different kind of composer, uh, probably stylistically, and also his musical influences and the choices that he was part of for this film. He has passed. He he passed pretty recently in 2023.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. His I apologize for the son of a bitch comment.
SPEAKER_02:No, it's okay. Uh, strictly speaking, his filmography as a composer is pretty brief because that wasn't like what he fully did um career-wise.
SPEAKER_03:He was a musician.
SPEAKER_02:He's a musician. Yeah. So he has an uncredited credit for the King of Comedy. Uh, and then this is really interesting to me. So he did a film called Jimmy Hollywood. Then he was the composer on The Irishman, and then he got an Os posthumously, he got a Best Original Score Oscar nomination for Killers of the Flower Moon.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:He was the composer on that film.
SPEAKER_03:For this film specifically, He just made a mixtape of like shitty songs you'd hear in a bar.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, which maybe that's exactly the point.
SPEAKER_03:But they were it it was shockingly bad in terms of just like it was overwhelmingly. Like, yeah, it was so uh I don't I don't even know how to describe it properly.
SPEAKER_02:I was like trying to think, was there even a break at any point in the film where there wasn't music playing? Like it was just it was just too much.
SPEAKER_03:But it is like I think that's accurate in terms of like you're going in these pool halls, there's always gonna be some like music blaring. And I will give him credit for uh Werewolves of London because that was a great scene where Tom Cruise is like freaking out, like playing all of the music and with like and his hair was perfect, and his hair was perfect in that scene.
SPEAKER_02:But every like almost every other song was just like oh it was grating, and you know, maybe it had something also to do with like the mixing because it was just it dominated the scene at times.
SPEAKER_03:I think that was intentional.
SPEAKER_02:I think, yeah, I think Yeah, and and so it was a choice that I just didn't vibe with.
SPEAKER_03:I think it was it was definitely intentional, like right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's always intentional. Yeah, yeah. It's always intentional, but like I think that there was It was a wrong choice. Um who am I gonna say? But like it just it didn't work for me. It was just too much, it was really distracting for me. It it like was it was frustrating to me because I was like, I want to be invested in this movie, and I'm getting so fucking distracted by this music.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it it came in so hard that it was like trying to make the shitty music another character of the movie. Yes, and that was a character I didn't want to know anything about. Plenty I wanted to know about with Vincent and Carmen and Eddie. Yes, like there was there was more than enough going on. So if you want to have like shitty pool hall music, just uh just dial it down a little.
SPEAKER_02:Dial it down. We don't need it at 11.
SPEAKER_03:So that's we we had strong thoughts on the music during the whole movie.
SPEAKER_02:Whole movie.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
unknown:All right.
SPEAKER_02:Moving on to editing, Thelma Schoonmacher. So again, brought her up very recently because she I don't know if she is now officially retired. Uh she might be, but she not not ex well, exclusively here. Maybe. I mean, she definitely was Scorsese's go-to editor. Yeah. She's phenomenal, so there's a reason for that. So let's go through her filmography. So many nominations, multiple wins, very deserved. So very early on, she gets an editing nomination. All of her nominations are editing, uh, film editing. I know that we just had an episode where we talked about people who had a lot of crossover between film editing and sound editing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But for this, she gets a nomination for the film Woodstock. She gets her first Oscar win for Raging Bull. Yeah, I could see that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:She works with Scorsese on King Comedy. She works with him on After Hours, Last Temptation of Christ. She gets her next nomination for Goodfellas. She works with him on The Age of Innocence Casino. She gets another nomination for The Gangs of New York, and then she gets back-to-back wins. She wins for The Aviator, she wins for the departed.
SPEAKER_03:That's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02:Very cool. She's fucking legit, man. You don't get more legit than this. She works on Shutter Island. She gets another nomination for Hugo. She works on so I don't know if I just like was gravitating towards all her sketch scores. I mean, to be fair, like, it probably is a heavy lift to do these films, especially later in his career. These films are like fucking three hours long.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So what does that collaboration look like when she's working? I mean, I assume that there's like that's a really good question.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, look, some directors, in my estimation, are kind of overbearing and impose upon these other professionals who I think by and large know how to do their job, but the director, you know, like these fucking quote unquote autours, which arguably Scorsese is one of them. I'm not saying he does this, but like the directors that are, you know, it's a Scorsese film. And I always that's why we have this format for our podcast, because I get, as you can tell, I get really irritated when people don't give credit to all the many people who also work on these films. It's not just the fucking director people, but anyway. So like it's wild to me. It is wild to me when I hear people talking about a film and they're like, oh my God, uh, you know, I'm making up somebody. But when like Joe Johnson, the look of his film, I'm like, who is Joe Johnson's DP? Because that's the look of the film. That's who, you know, again, it all depends from from project to project.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I don't specifically know what the dynamic is between Scorsese and Schoonmacher, you know, whether he's sitting in the room with her or he lets her do her thing. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:He does uh yeah, whether he's like in there with her or whether he gets a look and has a couple notes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, probably has more than a couple notes, I'm guessing, um, just because of who he is. But it's like just let them fucking do their jobs. Jesus Christ. Anyway. Okay. So she cuts the Wolf of Wall Street, she gets another Oscar nomination for the Irishman, and then most recently she gets another Oscar nomination for Killers of the Flower Moon. All right. All right, we're at the stars of the film. This is a very contained film as far as the cast.
SPEAKER_03:It is.
SPEAKER_02:It might be the shortest list I've had so far.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Of uh, because I have six people that I'm gonna mention. All right. With a couple fun cameos. So I'm just like smiling because I love it. We're gonna start with Paul Newman. So he plays Eddie, Eddie Felson.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, as you mentioned at the top of the episode, this is a reprising of his role from The Hustler. And Newman, uh man, I'm getting like emotional. I just really loved him.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, he he was incredible.
SPEAKER_02:He's probably one of my favorites. Uh and I remember when he passed away. I mean, he he had an amazing life. I think he died in his mid-80s. Uh but I remember it's such a stupid thing to remember, but I was getting like my my oil changed at at the dealership or whatever, and you know, I was in like a waiting room with a TV on, and then they announced his passing, and I just remember being really sad.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like he had an amazing life. Uh, I was just really sad that that he had left us, but he he left us with like an amazing filmography, and yes, he won best actor for this film. This is one of those things where, like, look, I think he's tremendous in this movie. Some people have said that it's one of those, like, he should have won weight earlier in his career, and so this is like kind of making up for it type thing that has happened.
SPEAKER_03:If this is his first this is his first?
SPEAKER_02:First win, first and only.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, then he should have. I don't I don't know if it's like uh DiCaprio in the Revenant, but or like Denzel Washington.
SPEAKER_02:Although Denzel Training Day? Yeah, yeah. He had, I think, didn't he win Best Supporting though for Glory, or was it just an om? Don't remember. But uh, you know, so everyone's a while you get something like that. I I mean he's incredible in this, so like I don't care. I'm just glad he got the recognition. But let's go through his filmography. It's he he just had so many incredible roles. Uh very early in his career. I mean, like, look, he, if it's okay to say in front of my husband, he was a beautiful, beautiful man. No, he he was so I say that only because I think earlier in his career, maybe he wasn't taken so seriously.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I when I first moved to California and had a roommate who worked at um like a big hotel, and I don't know, he he was like a food and beverage guy, and he I don't know if he met or like saw, but he he had like a Paul Newman encounter.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:And he's like, Derek, when I saw his eyes, yeah, when I looked into his eyes, I was lost.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Like he oh, he was uh he was a gorgeous, gorgeous fella. Uh so earlier in his career, I think that you know he was kind of looked at as like, oh, he's just a good looking actor with maybe not a ton of depth, yeah, which was 100% wrong. But some of his early credits, The Long Hot Summer, The Left Hand and Gun. Okay, so he was multi, multi-nominated. It just took many decades before he finally got a win. He got his first Oscar nomination, best actor. I think all except for one, his very last nomination was best supporting, otherwise, it was all best actor. First one was for Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. I love that fucking movie so much. That is a film that I just became familiar with at a really young age. It's one of those movies where maybe somebody who is like 10 or 12 years old, you wouldn't think. I don't know. I just love that movie. I just I love him, love Elizabeth Taylor on that film. They are dynamite together. It is there, I know that um there was maybe a little bit. Hmm, how do I put this? I think there were overtures in the play that they chose not to bring into the film.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, because basically Brick, the character that Newman plays, had this friendship. His friend took his life. I believe in the play there are overtures that was more than a platonic relationship between the two of them.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:They don't bring that into the film.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I'm not surprised, for I think it was 1958. Yeah. So there you go. Uh, he gets his next Oscar nomination for The Hustler. Okay. So he gets that. That makes sense. I mean, he goes on just this like run of Oscar nominations in very quick succession. He gets another Oscar nomination for HUD. He gets another Oscar Oscar nomination for Colhan Luke. He then has one of the most famous probably teamings in cinema history. He teams up with Redford. Hopefully, they're having fun with whatever they're doing right now in the afterlife. For Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:Love that movie as well. That movie's great. Uh, probably though, I'll I'll get to it. Um love them more so in their other teaming. But he also, the life and times of Joy Judge Roy Bean. It's kind of hard to say.
SPEAKER_03:It is the life and times of Judge Roy Bean.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Uh The Towering Inferno, The Drowning Pool, Of course they reteam for uh The Sting.
SPEAKER_03:That's probably my favorite. Um, I could see. Yeah, I mean, yeah, like Robert Shaw. That that movie is just incredible.
SPEAKER_02:It is, it is.
SPEAKER_03:And the music, pretty good, unlike really fucking good. Unlike the color of money.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it's a period piece. Yeah. It's it's very fun. And that one best picture, definitely a departure, but he does remind me a lot of his character in Slapshot. Okay. Rather, I should say maybe he took elements of Eddie from The Hustler, put that into his role in Slapshot, and then that informed Color Money. Anyway, just a little bit of similarity there, especially his relationship with like women is very similar in Slapshot and the Color Money. So he goes on another little mini streak with Oscar nominations. And these are the films that I was saying, oh, we should totally talk about these. He gets a best actor nomination for Absence of Malice as well as The Verdict. He does Fat Man and Little Boy, The Hudsucker Proxy. He gets his last best actor nomination for Nobody's Fool. He's in Twilight. And then he gets his He's in what? The movie Twilight. Not the Vampire movie. Uh and then his last nomination is for Best Supporting for Road to Perdition.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, with uh Tom Hanks. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Very good movie. I like it a lot. Uh he does voice work or did. He voiced on cars, which he was a big car aficionado.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:In fact, in fact, I think he might have turned on Tom Cruise to cars.
SPEAKER_03:Which maybe led to him being in like the whole Days of Thunder.
SPEAKER_02:I don't want to speak out of term, but I think maybe that is how Tom Cruise got introduced to like car racing.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Yeah. My favorite Tom Cruise Days of Thunder thing is that his character's name was Cole Trickle. And then there actually is, there was a NASCAR racer named Dick Trickle.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Best name ever.
SPEAKER_02:Terrible name ever. Uh so and and just to say also, like, he had an interesting career because actually, really, really early on, he did a lot of TV work, like one-offs and two offs. At that period of time, that wouldn't necessarily translate into having this like A-list film career. Yeah. But it did. But he did start off in television. And then I wanted to bring this up because outside of all of these other nominations and his one win, he had other Oscar attention. He did get one Best Picture Oscar nomination for a film that he directed and produced on. So it was a film called Rachel Rachel. He's not in it, but he directed his wife, Joanne Woodward.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:She in herself was an acclaimed actress, also Oscar winning. But so I just had to say this because it was so funny. So it's like, oh, what's this movie? I've never heard of Rachel Rachel.
SPEAKER_04:Neither have I.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know how well it did, but it did get like some Oscar love. I think it was nominated in multiple categories. But if you go to like the storyline, which I I think almost anybody on IMDb can just put that up there, the opening line of this one storyline is 35-year-old spinster and virgin. Oh, okay. Rachel Cameron is a sad, lonely woman. Oh. I was like, goddamn. That's that's uh the takeaway from that film. She apparently is like some woman who lives with her mom, she doesn't have much of a life, and then of course she meets a man, and that all changes. That's the gist I got from it.
SPEAKER_03:All right. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:And then in addition to that, so I think the year that he no, it would have been the following year. In 86, he got just like an honorary award, so a non-competitive Oscar. And then in 1994, he got I don't know if they just added a name to it or this is a different kind of honorary. He was the winner of the Gene Herschel Hen Humanitarian Award. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Because he yeah, he did a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and like Newman's own, yeah, that whole line of food. And I think again, I don't want to speak out of turn. I think literally every dime of that went to charity. I think so. I don't think he collected on anything. Yeah. So he was he was pretty incredible. He he was a pretty pretty cool guy. Okay, moving on to Tom Cruise. So sorry, that took a lot out of me. He's just he was amazing. Um Tom Cruise, you know what I noticed maybe for the first time is just how contained his homography is. If you look at it, he actually hasn't done a ton. Because I think, you know, I started with Newman, I think Newman had about 80 something credits.
SPEAKER_03:But they're all like huge.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Yeah. And Cruz is about half that, I think. Uh he has like what, 40 or 50, I think, credits. Not a ton.
SPEAKER_03:But they're all huge.
SPEAKER_02:But they're all huge.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Not all of them. There there's a few that that I think um didn't end up being as huge, like uh what was it? The um the mummy. I don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So we've talked about him a couple times, and he will certainly come up again in the future. He sure will. But he plays Vincent, so he you know, I g I guess you would say protege of Eddie to some degree. Yeah. You brought up a really good point though, last night, I think after the movie was over, in terms of saying that I don't want to speak on your behalf, but like, if I may, like something to the extent of like Hustler just had more to it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, there was a different kind of depth because Eddie, the character of Eddie in the hustler, is just like this obsessed, addicted kind of character who would go on these like 24, 25 hour like runs of just playing.
SPEAKER_02:Like his own version of a bender.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, where he's just like he would get drunk and do stupid things, and um when he got I don't know if it was before or after he got his like hands broken, he ends up meeting Sarah, I think. And there's more of a like a real relationship, and he kind of falls in love with her, and she did not want him like going back into that world, but he did, and she kills herself, and he very much puts a lot of the blame on Bert, which is George C. Scott's character. And so at the end of The Hustler, there's there's a confrontation where like the money that he makes from beating fats, Minnesota fats, Bert's trying to get his cut, and Eddie is like no. And when he's threatened, he basically says, You're gonna have to kill me, because if you don't, I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna kill you. And Scott lets him go, but tells him, Don't ever come into a major pool hall again. And they don't really talk about any of that in the color of money. They make it look like he just didn't know what an optometrist was. Like he could have been playing pool, but this like incredibly traumatic period of his life took place, and it wasn't just about getting a new pair of glasses, it was something about meeting this character and Vince that kind of inspired him to play and compete and hustle. But my take is that he saw himself turning into Bert from the hustler, and that's why he like cut him loose and wanted to just go do his own thing again.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean that's a really good summarization, too, of that film. I I really, you know, music frustrations aside, did really like this movie. It felt though I don't I don't know how to articulate it. It felt a little light. I don't know if I really believed the stakes were that severe.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And you get a job back at the toy place or whatever, Vince.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um and even though I was like reading through a lot of reviews, and like, look, it it was a multi-oscar nominated film. A lot of critics did like it. And I thought it was interesting though that a lot of them spoke to like, oh, these three characters are really fleshed out. And I don't know if I totally agreed.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think that, like, look, I'm never going to say that Newman didn't deserve this character, but there's a lot inherited from The Hustler.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. I like I might watch The Hustler after we're done recording this. I kind of wish I had before we watched it, because I think all of that like informs how you would feel about his character in in this. And I think that this movie is way more about Paul Newman as Fast Eddie than it is Tom Cruise. I mean, there's a there's like a what half-hour period where you just don't even see Cruz anymore towards the end. When Fast Eddie learns how to swim and get glasses.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I think it's a lot more about him in in I thought about whether or not it was like, was it did it make sense to have Cruz in this role? Did it distract from from Newman's character? But I think it made sense because Cruz brought a similar energy to like the younger Eddie. You needed to see like that that person who was almost like self-destructive and how how they like how arrogant or how obsessive they were about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that in a previous episode, when we talked about the prospect of covering this film, for me a big draw was really wanting to see how Newman and Cruz played off each other.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I think I'm maybe kind of there with you. Like I think I think Tom Cruise does a does a good job in this film. I don't think I needed Tom Cruise to be in this role, though.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I because I agree with you. I think it is Newman's film.
SPEAKER_03:It is. I guess where where I landed was they didn't need Cruz, but to have someone to bring that level of charisma to the role to make you feel like this literally could be somebody who would rival or like make Eddie see something that he would have seen in himself when he was younger.
SPEAKER_02:It is interesting though, just the way that they even become aware of each other. I mean, it seems like Newman goes to that pool hall a lot.
SPEAKER_03:He is a apparently successful alcohol distributor, salesperson, and that's yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it just was interesting to me because he obviously knows the woman who works there because they're kind of in a relationship.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And he knows the John Tutoro character. So like he knows that space.
SPEAKER_03:Totoro I know we'll we'll talk more about him, I'm guessing, but he's in so many of these movies where it's just like we did a guy who kind of looks like a believable scumbag who's into degenerate stuff. Yeah. Uh, what's Totoro up to?
SPEAKER_02:It it is an interesting uh, like you said, we will get to him, but there's a there's a little bit of an interesting angle to that character, but all to say, Newman knows that space.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I find it hard to believe that he had never come across Vincent before. That Vincent just like showed up because they all live in that like in that area.
SPEAKER_03:I don't I don't know if he was like practicing on mom and dad's pool table in like the back room or something. Like, how did he get that good without never having gone into that exactly bar or pool hall?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, it's a little the logic. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:That's fair. But in any case, he should have been from another town.
SPEAKER_02:He should have been from another town. Yeah. Yeah. Cruz, and it is an interesting role for Cruz because I'm trying to think of like other characters that we know so well. I mean, this I think filmed immediately after Top Gun. So he had already well we'll go through his filmography, but you know, like he had a couple things under his mouth, Risky Business, all the right moves, that kind of thing. He plays a very sweet person who is hot-headed, but also is like a little bit dense.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like when Carmen is talking about how he does not re he to this day does not realize that she stole like that jewel that she has around her neck. And he's like, Oh, my mom has one just like it. It's like, yeah, because I stole the other one. You know, like it. So I think that's a little bit of a departure from the kind of role he usually does.
SPEAKER_03:He's he's fairly naive.
SPEAKER_02:Fairly naive.
SPEAKER_03:And I will say that I suppose he was pretty naive in legend, although that's a very different kind of story.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, totally. I mean, he's not he's not even human.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, check out this unicorn.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So you're right, but you're right. Uh and even even when they're arguing, though, he still like you know, he gets he does get mad at Eddie on multiple occasions, but there's never a real like, even when they go their separate ways, I don't think it's like necessarily acrimonious.
SPEAKER_03:It's a little bit at the very end. The more that I thought about what happens when um when Eddie forfeits in the tournament and then immediately hands the envelope to Cruz.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I meant like prior. When like when he gets hustled by Amos.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then he's like, forget it, I don't want to do this anymore.
SPEAKER_03:Like Oh, they were they were like begging him to like they were sad.
SPEAKER_02:They were they felt they were feeling abandoned by him. Uh Vincent was feeling abandoned by him. And so even then, there's like still caring between them. Uh so it's just, I don't know, it's interesting their relationship, but also it felt like a little. It was weird because it's like you guys just met each other, you immediately go on the road, you've spent maybe I don't know, four weeks together.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So the attachment level felt a little off to me. I don't know, just little I'm nitpicking, but just like little things didn't quite work for me. But I do think that the performances were really good.
SPEAKER_03:And you really had the uh pool stick jujitsu down, sure did, and the sound effects and everything.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so his filmography, uh, like I said, we've we brought him up a bit. So I'll go through it earlier this year. So taps, the outsiders, risky business, all the right moves. I mean, as far as like what we would do next with him, probably cocktail.
SPEAKER_03:Uh let's you don't ever want to do risky business, do you? I'm sure we'll do it at some point.
SPEAKER_02:But I would probably do all the right moves before I would do risky business, to be honest. Yeah. Or the outsiders. We I can't believe we haven't done the outsiders yet. So he, of course, is the lead. He is Maverick in Top Gun and then reprises that role. So he kind of has his own little Eddie Felson 20 years later, 30 years later, 40 years later, somewhere between 30 and 40 years later. Yeah. Comes back from Maverick. Uh, Maverick gets a best picture Oscar nom. Of course, he like pretty much produces on all his films, so he gets a best picture nom for that. He does cocktail, Rain Man, which we covered earlier this year, so go check that one out. He gets his first best actor Oscar nom for Born on the Fourth of July. He does which well deserved.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you've said that I think it's 89, so we can cover that one.
SPEAKER_03:We can, but I don't know if we it's it's not, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's not a fun movie.
SPEAKER_03:It is, it's not. I mean, hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:He does Days of Thunder, Far and Away, which is not a great film, but it is kind of fun. We probably have any Tom Cruise film have watched a few good men the most.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's always on TV. Just because it's always on. And we always keep it on when it's on TV. He is in the firm. He I've said it a lot every time he comes up on this podcast. I adore him. An interview with a vampire. Yeah. He is so fucking fun as Lestat. He makes that movie fucking Brad Pitt. I know it's kind of what the character is, but he is such a fucking downer.
SPEAKER_03:He's a good villain. Like Cruz. Lestat?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, he's a great villain.
SPEAKER_03:Cruz is good as the villain, which he does uh not often enough.
SPEAKER_02:Not often enough. And as they say, he chews the scenery in in that movie. So here we go. He starts with what is like probably one of the most successful franchises in film history, the Mission Impossible franchise. Yeah. He's, of course, and every single one of them is Ethan Hunt. So that means he's been in Mission Impossible 2, 3, and now we get like names for them. Ghost Protocol, Rogue Nation, Fallout. I like Fallout. Yeah. Dead Reckoning Part 1. And then just this year, presumably, the last one came out, which is called The Final Reckoning.
SPEAKER_03:It was a little bit of a disappointment because Dead Reckoning was so good. It was really fun to see in a theater. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The only thing I hated is that what's her name? Elsa?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Ilsa.
SPEAKER_02:Ilsa?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I didn't want her to die. Sorry, spoiler.
SPEAKER_03:Rebecca Ferguson? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:She was great. I love the way the play. I love that he had a person in his world who was this like amazing woman who could fucking handle her own until she didn't and she died. But there wasn't a like a romantic angle. Like I like There kinda was, wasn't there? I mean, in Dead Reckoning, for some unknown reason, neither of them had ever been to Venice before. Yeah. And they like share a hug, but that's about it. Yeah. That's all we are ever shown. So okay. So then he gets his next Oscar nomination for Jerry Maguire, which is a very fun role. He does Eyes Wide Shut, which is a very not fun.
SPEAKER_03:Very not fun experience from start to finish.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, look, uh people are gonna come at me. I am not a Kubrick fan, by and large. I've never really I love The Shining, but I don't like the The Shining movie. I think you know Well, that's because you're a King fan.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. I I um I appreciate that he for sure has like a style.
SPEAKER_02:Who Kubrick?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, 1000%.
SPEAKER_03:I just don't always like like the execution is there, it's just not something that I'm drawn to.
SPEAKER_02:He too was an amazing filmmaker, but I never he there's like a coldness in his work, kind of like a emptiness of emotion that I just it makes it very hard for me to latch on to his projects, and and also I've heard that he like wasn't the nicest person to the people that he worked with. And to me, I don't buy into the whole like, but he was a genius, so it was all okay.
SPEAKER_03:Like and that's eyes wide shut.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's eyes wide shut. Okay, so he gets his next Oscar nomination, best supporting for Magnolia, which was a very good role for him.
SPEAKER_03:He was in Vanilla Sky. Underrated. I think that's one of the more underrated Cruise movies and performances.
SPEAKER_02:I'd agree with you. I'd have to revisit that because that was one of those movies where I'm like, what did I just watch?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Minority report. He is tremendous and collateral.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. No, that's where he like kind of That's where he should have gotten an Oscar nom. He takes back up being the villain, and he's incredible.
SPEAKER_02:Why did he not get an osconom for that? It's so good.
SPEAKER_03:And he's Vincent.
SPEAKER_02:So my God. Now we know what happened to him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Vince. Vince really matures and makes some changes in his life.
SPEAKER_02:Can you imagine if that was a continuation of that character?
SPEAKER_03:I don't I don't have to. It is. It is, it's right there.
SPEAKER_02:What a sad outcome for that character. Yeah. If it's the same Vincent. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, like Vince, Vince is a kid, like he How odd that that is the same character name.
SPEAKER_02:You think he'd be like, can we just change my name?
SPEAKER_03:Gets in trouble, maybe gets into a little bit of debt with the uh hustling, has to do a job.
SPEAKER_02:Totally loses that naivete, becomes this hardened, cynical person. Oh wow. Okay. So he's in Canon.
SPEAKER_03:It's Canon now.
SPEAKER_02:It's Canon. He's in War of the Worlds, which we were re-watched recently. Not my favorite. I love Spielberg, but I'm like, this is not entertaining at all to me. It's just scary and sad.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I I know that Spielberg for sure has made movies where you see like this brutality and it's intended to elicit this emotional response. I just didn't like I wasn't looking for that in what was supposed to be like kind of an effects sci-fi kind of movie.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, there is incredible intention and like accuracy, and it is brutal, but like of course it makes sense in like Schindler's list.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. But I don't I don't need Schindler's list creeping into War of the Worlds.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. He is ridiculously funny, and I think a lot of people absolutely love his little turn in Tropic Thunder.
SPEAKER_04:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:He's look, he's good in Rock of Ages. He's probably right on the cusp of being able to play that kind of role, but he pulls it out. And then as you mentioned, uh The Mummy. The reason why that I mean that certainly wasn't the last film that he did, but I just covered all the Mission Impossibles together, and that's what he's been focused on. Yeah. Couple Mission Impossibles, Little Maverick thrown in the middle. That's what he had most recently done. So okay. Moving on to Vincent's love interest, Carmen. You want to say her name? You did so good the first time.
SPEAKER_03:Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well done. And she did get Best Supporting Actress uh nomination for this film. She is really good as Carmen.
SPEAKER_03:She is. I mean, I don't know why she wouldn't. I I thought she was great in the abyss as well, so I don't know if it was just she was great in that role. She may have been competing against that year. Yeah. Not really competing against her.
SPEAKER_02:She could have got a nom for that too.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:She, to be fair, for me, I do feel like of the three characters, like, okay, like look, if I didn't know if I didn't know the hustler and I only knew Eddie from this film, I would think that she actually has the most fleshed out character. Like I said, you inherit a lot from the hustler to inform who Eddie is, but I think you do see a lot of who she is.
SPEAKER_03:Well, she's a lot, lot smarter than Vince.
SPEAKER_02:And I was thinking about that where I was like, you know, is there anything in her that truly cares or loves him? Because if he wasn't this fucking uh pool player savant, would she be with him?
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's that's basically how Eddie got them to go on the road trip. Right. By convincing Cruz that she wouldn't be.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And that so like he needed to make something happen with that.
SPEAKER_02:I'll say this much though. Like, you know, like look, I do appreciate that there's a moment between Eddie and her where he's like, stop playing games. I don't want to see you naked. Don't try to come on to me. Because, like, look, she We're partners. We're partners, and and I thought that was that's probably I don't know if I'd say it's like my favorite scene, but I think that was the most needed scene in the in the movie.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because there is this question mark of like, is he gonna be like kind of a creep with her? And makes it real clear, I'm not interested in that.
SPEAKER_03:Eddie, Eddie Felton has a lot of faults, but that wasn't one of them.
SPEAKER_02:Right. I'll say this much though. I can't speak for every woman, but I certainly have never just been sitting in a hotel room watching TV in a pair of undies and a fucking flannel shirt that's just like totally unbuttoned. No, nope. That's not how I relax. Would that even be comfortable? No.
SPEAKER_03:That is my point. I mean, I'm not I'm not walking around with like unbuttoned shirts all the time. No, like I wouldn't, I would not like.
SPEAKER_02:But you're also, you're also like, you feel totally fine about wearing one sock.
SPEAKER_03:So I How dare you reveal my darkest secret on this podcast.
SPEAKER_02:I'm I cannot do that. I but like what I'll just say, I cannot just walk around with an unbuttoned shirt. Yeah, that would feel so fucking weird, and especially what she was wearing flannel, that's not really that comfortable directly against the skin.
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_02:So like I did not buy that at all. Well, you know what?
SPEAKER_03:Neither did Eddie.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:He's like, I know what you're doing, stop it.
SPEAKER_02:And then when like she answers the fucking door, still with it unbuttoned, and then when he comes in and she just ties it, I'm like, no. So no, no, no.
SPEAKER_03:I thought what was interesting was his reaction. At first, you weren't sure if his reaction was like he is like attracted to her, and so he's like trying to like fight whatever like feeling he's having.
SPEAKER_02:She is an attractive young woman.
SPEAKER_03:But I think it was he was so uncomfortable what she was obviously doing, yeah, that he was like uncomfortable with the fact that he was gonna have to do something about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think there was a little bit of like I think there was a smidge.
SPEAKER_03:A smidge.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, like, look, she's a beautiful woman. So there was a smidge of like, fuck. Yeah you know, like she's this beautiful young woman, but I think that shows part of his character, you know. Yeah. And and just like who he is as a person to be like, I don't do this, you know, like cut it out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So well, his, you know, the um his girlfriend basically from the bar, yeah, was worried about shit like that. And so I appreciate that he, you know, he didn't know. He did not stray for a moment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So okay, her career, I mean, she's still very much working. Her career's a little bit uh more contained than the two gentlemen we've talked about, but some of her credits include at some point we're gonna have to do Scarface. So she's in that. Stay a hold of my little friend. Yeah. The January Man, you mentioned it earlier. Yeah, with Kevin Flein, yeah. I haven't seen it. Yeah. She's in the abyss. We covered that with James a couple seasons ago. Go check that one out. Probably a lot of people know her from Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves.
SPEAKER_03:She is uh Marion, Craig. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:She was in My Life So Far, The Perfect Storm, and then more recently, she's really transitioned heavily into television.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So she has been on the show without a trace. She had, I think, a bit of an arc on Law and Order, Criminal Intent. She was on the show Hostages, Limitless, and Blind Spot.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. So the last couple people that were bringing up, so the three that we've talked about, they are the film.
SPEAKER_03:They are that's the everything revolves around them. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So we have these other people important as far as like the supporting roles that they provide. First, we're gonna talk about that girlfriend of Eddie's, Janelle, is the character's name, played by Helen Shaver. She herself, very busy, has had a long career. All these individuals I'm bringing up have. Her credits include Who Has Seen the Wind?
SPEAKER_03:I don't really see. I see stuff getting blown by it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's why I include it as like that's you don't see the wind. I love this title in praise of older women.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:I okay, so I know I totally knock this film because it's like that movie's not scary at all. She's in the Amityville horror, not sure the character she plays.
SPEAKER_03:Carolyn. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know if she's like, what's her name's like, does she have a sister or something? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:She's in the movie Gas, The Osterman Weekend. I totally I had totally forgot about this movie before I was doing my notes on this. Did you ever? Seen the movie The Believers with Martin Sheen?
SPEAKER_03:Wait.
SPEAKER_02:That's one of those movies I saw way too young.
SPEAKER_03:That is a movie where Martin Sheen's wife, I think, dies from like a freak coffee maker accident, like it electrocutes her or something, and there's like weird black magic voodoo involved, and like spiders coming out of someone like a Oh, I don't remember that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's been a while since I've seen it. I just remember seeing it as a child.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And it uh It's an 80s movie, I think, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we could totally do it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So she's in that. Okay. Some people might know her as Littlefoot's mother in The Land Before Time. So she's in that. Zebrahead, Morning Glory, Open Season, The Craft. Uh I was like, who the fuck is she in the craft? Because I just had that movie on repeat over the last couple months with Halloween. She is, and we just brought her up for Return to Oz, Faruza Bulk's mother.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, in the craft.
SPEAKER_02:So small, small role, but and then she was on the TV series The Education of Max Bickford. Okay. We brought him up before briefly, John Totoro. So he plays Julian. And I did think this was an interesting character, because the sense I got is that he wanted to be Eddie's protege.
SPEAKER_03:He was like he would Eddie would stake him on games, so they probably had some kind of an arrangement. Right. Where like some like small time hustling going on until he ran into Vincent. Right. But yeah, apparently big Cokehead in this movie. Because every time he would come out, Eddie would be like, hey, look in the mirror, look at your face in the mirror and wipe your nose or something.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I get the sense that he was like his feelings were hurt when he found out that Eddie was taking Vincent on the road.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I'm sure his feelings were hurt, but he was also like a professional hustler with a cocaine addiction, so I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think he just like look, he's older, so he's not really in the true sense of protege because he's been and he he has done okay for himself in his own right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think he just I don't know. I think there was some jealousy there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That Eddie took a shine such a shine to Vincent and immediately was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna help this kid out.
SPEAKER_03:It seemed like he was he was like a pretty competent player. Yeah. But then when he kept on coming back to Eddie Right like so quickly. Right. Like because he needed more like money and Eddie's like, what?
SPEAKER_02:Like, what the fuck is going on?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, what just happened?
SPEAKER_02:So Tutoro, he's had he's had an incredible career. Uh, very busy guy. I had to really limit all of the credits that I put down for him, and I still put down, oh my lord, over 20 of them. So let's go over some of them. Uh mostly films. And he's had he's had some really remarkable collaborations with filmmakers. So we might have brought him up, although I don't remember how big of a role he had in Desperately Seeking Susan. He's in that. I think he did come up. He was in To Live and Die in LA, Hannah and Her Sisters, Gung Ho. Okay, so I think this is the beginning of his longtime collaboration with Spike Lee. He's in Do the Right Thing. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So that is one of the filmmakers that he, I'm gonna list off a lot of credits. Uh Spike Lee Joints, if you will, that he has been part of. Uh Mo Badder Blues, Jungle Fever, and then I think Barton Fink might be the beginning of his collaboration with the Cohen Brothers.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So that is the other filmmaking collaboration. He's been part of a couple of their films as well. So he does Barton Fink, this came up earlier. He's in Clockers, Girl Six, that's another Spike Lee film. Then he does the Big Globalski, that's a Cohen Brothers film.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. He's like their didn't they make like a sequel about him? Did they? I maybe.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe. They don't really do a lot of sequels though, because they just like jump from genre under genre.
SPEAKER_03:I thought there was like something else with um Possibly. With him, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I am certainly not an expert on their filmography. Uh then he goes back, he does he got game, rounders, he goes back to the Cohn Brothers. Oh brother, we're out though. He does, and then this I thought was kind of funny because it was like, oh, is he buddies with Adam Sandler? He does Mr. Deeds and Anger Management. I did not realize he was such a part of the Transformers franchise. He's in all the movies. Uh so he's in the first one, Revenge of the Fallen, Dark of the Moon, and The Last Night. He does another Sandler film. He's in You Don't Mess with the Zohan.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I don't think he was in the first cars, but he also does cars work, uh, voice work for Cars 2.
SPEAKER_03:Cars work for Voice 2?
SPEAKER_02:Is that what I said?
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_02:Probably. No. He does voice work for Cars 2. So he's part of the same franchise as Newman. He so the I have two TV series for him. One is Name of the Rose, and then like right now, he's on Severance. But he also, I don't remember who he was. He was in The Batman.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, the one with uh Robert Pattinson.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. The so he was in a movie from 2019, The Jesus Rolls. And that was the character from Lebowski.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for looking that up.
SPEAKER_03:But it looks like it, well, he was one of the writers.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So the last person I'm bringing up as far as like going through their filmography is Bill Cobb. So I just when I saw this guy, I was like, oh, I've seen this guy in like everything. Orvis. So if you don't know who we're talking about, he is the gentleman where kind of the first main pool hall that Newman and Shockeys. Thank you. Yeah. So Eddie brings Vincent in here. It's to kind of start on this education, I'll say, of like what what do they call it? Dumping games.
SPEAKER_03:He was trying to like teach him a bit, but I think part of the teaching was to get him a bit of a reputation, but he wanted that to be a reputation of this kid who was just like super high energy and green. And so all the other people would like line up to be playing because they think he'd be like a mark, like easy, easy money with this guy. Um like literally playing the long con. So that's what got them started in this place, but also because it was a little bit more isolated, I think, like because everyone does just like mostly hang around there. The stakes were like, if you fuck it up, it won't be as bad.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And he did.
SPEAKER_02:So they go into this pool hall that is now owned by Orvis. And when they walk in, you know, Newman, I think, ask asks for a table, and right away this gentleman quocks him. And I thought it was really interesting because I was like, oh, I wonder if that changes the way that Eddie's going to play this. Because this guy knows who he is. He knows what he's done.
SPEAKER_03:He knows the game.
SPEAKER_02:He knows the game. So, and you know, to his credit, Orvis kind of keeps keeps his business to himself. He doesn't say anything to anybody about anything. But it is hilarious because when Vincent, you know, he's kind of getting talked down to by somebody. I I don't even remember which pool player it was, but then he's like cowboy hat guy. Was it him? Or was it the guy with the like polyester shirt?
SPEAKER_03:I think the it might have been, it might have been. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And in that moment, you know the polyester shirt. Vincent's like, fuck you. I'm going to wipe the floor with you. Yeah. And just he goes on this jag of just winning, winning, winning. And there's just this hilarious moment where Newman is just like kind of dejectedly watching, and Orvis just kind of looks over at him.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And is like because they were trying to get the attention of this guy who would come in and blow a lot of money. Right. But if he's intimidated or think someone's on like a streak, he's not going to even cry.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So the actor who played Orvis, he just had such great facial expressions. Yeah. He could say so much without saying anything. He Bill Cobbs, the actor, he passed away very recently. He passed away in 2024. He had a very full career. He had like a like there's still what they call upcoming credits. I don't know if that will ever pan out. I don't know if there's things in post that just, but he had a very, very long career. And let's go through some of his credits. Yeah. Very early in his career. So okay, so some of these are, you know, there are no small, what is the there are no small roles, just small actors. So some of these roles are not maybe as well known in terms the films are well known, but maybe they're not the roles. He was in A Hero Ain't Nothing But a Sandwich. I like that.
SPEAKER_03:I like that too.
SPEAKER_02:That's a great title. What I mean is uh he's in trading places in Silkwood, but I don't think like we did do trading places. I doubt he came up.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The Brother from Another Planet, which I would very much like to cover at some point.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I remember that.
SPEAKER_02:The Cotton Club Suspect. Oh. He also is in the January Man. Okay, we gotta cover that. Uh he did mostly film, but he has I have some TV series sprinkled in. He was in a TV show called Homeroom. The film The People Under the Stairs, the film The Bodyguard, TV series I'll Flyway. He also was in the Hudsucker Proxy. Okay. Things to do in Denver When You're Dead, That Thing You Do? Ghost of Mississippi. He's like in everything. Airbud. I yeah, everything. He goes from Ghost of Mississippi to Airbud.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, amazing.
SPEAKER_02:One of the worst sequel titles ever. I Still Know What You Did Last Summer.
SPEAKER_03:Still haven't forgotten.
SPEAKER_02:Such a bad title. He was on the TV show, The Gregory Hines Show, the film Random Hearts, the TV series, The Others, the film Enough. He was in the original nine at the museum, and he comes back for that sequel, Secret of the Tomb, and the TV series go on. And then his final credit was a film called Broken Church. Okay.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Amazing. So, real quick, just want to say two notable cameos. One is Iggy Pop. Yeah. He's one of the people that plays Vincent. And then we had Force Whitaker, who is an absolute hustler. Absolute hustler. And he he hustles Eddie, which causes Eddie's breakdown, which causes the demise of his partnership with Vincent. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:And it is a hard scene to watch. Like you kind of know from the jump, but he's like so he's writing a high Eddie is.
SPEAKER_03:It's very like again. If you watch The Hustler, it was one of the most Eddie, fast Eddie things to happen in the movie. Like that was him regressing back to like that time in the first movie.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And it's really hard once he realizes what's happened. He's crushed. He's, I think, humiliated. He feels stupid. And to their credit, Carmen and Vincent really try to just like, it's fine. Like it's okay. Like, we'll get him next time. Not a big deal. Like they, yeah, they don't mock him. They don't make him feel any worse. They're trying to just shake it off. You know?
SPEAKER_03:Like, yeah, they're like, what's wrong with you, man?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like it's fine. It's fine. So I give them a lot of credit for how they responded in that moment. Because they could have been like, what a loser, old man you are, that you got hustled by this.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, they could have just like seen it all and been like, This is making me, this is giving me the ick. Yeah. As the kids would say.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. And they don't. So okay. Film synopsis.
SPEAKER_03:What do we got?
SPEAKER_02:Fast Eddie Felsen teaches a cocky but immensely talented protege the ropes of pool hustling, which in turn inspires him to make an unlikely comeback.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I yeah, I forgot the the comeback part of it, but yeah. Yeah. When we were watching, I'm like, I'm pretty sure he comes back. But yeah, it's right there in the synopsis. I guess I should have seen that.
SPEAKER_02:To me, that was in many ways more interesting to watch.
SPEAKER_03:Again, I think this movie is really about that and about Eddie, much more so than it is then.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it is very funny when you're like, just get a fucking pair of glasses, man.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, that's why I wish they talked about like the threat and this like former love interest who killed it. Like, there was a lot of stuff in the hustler that that like led to him like going for so long before like really getting back into playing again. And they just made it seem like like he needed to get an eye check and like get some glasses. That was that wasn't it.
SPEAKER_02:And also it's really interesting to me that like did he really not pick up a pool stick again until Eddie or I'm sorry, until Vincent came into his life.
SPEAKER_03:I get the sense that he was still like just playing small games and yeah, he he. I don't think he that was like the first time he he played again.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, okay. That's that's more realistic.
SPEAKER_03:I think so.
SPEAKER_02:I was like, you haven't played in 20 years, but yeah, I mean, overall, I did enjoy the film. I really I really enjoy watching very good actors play off each other.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it's very like to me, this was very similar to part of the interest, part of the reason why I love Rain Man is seeing, and it's not always like has to be somebody playing off Tom Cruise, but like seeing somebody like a Dustin Hoffman playing off Tom Cruise and just seeing two different generational actors and how they engage. And this was the that was part of the fun of watching this film for me. Yeah. So would you watch it again?
SPEAKER_03:Yes, I would. Maybe I'll have it on mute for some of the music, but um, yeah, I'll watch it again. I I do want to watch The Hustler again after seeing this. I'm more interested in that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah. I I think I don't need to see it again soon. But I just, you know, again, I love Paul Newman. If anything, it was like, oh, there's like other Paul Newman films I want to watch.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_02:So maybe a r and then maybe a rewatch of some of the ones that I know. So but at some point, yeah, I would I would like to watch it again. And as far as like a call to action, I'm I mean, some of these I know I have not been too too nuanced, but I am curious how people feel about seeing this character being brought to life like what about 20, 25 years later, after the first film, and just seeing the evolution of Eddie Felsen, how other people feel about the continuation of this character, if they feel kind of like what you've expressed, um, or just overall their thoughts on it. Because that is really interesting when you I mean now it now it's a little bit more common where now they're doing these sequels 30, 40 years later. Yeah, yeah. Actually, quite a bit. So I I mean, I I bet I could pick out examples earlier in cinema, but now there's everything's being brought back.
SPEAKER_03:Coming to America, Beverly Hills Cop Four, um, the the Ghostbusters sequels. Yep. Um, my call to action is just um, you know, at the very end, hey, I'm back. Who won? Right. Who do you think won that uh that game?
SPEAKER_02:Interesting way to end the film.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, in a way it doesn't matter because what matters is that like that last scene or that last statement from from Eddie that that like whether he whether he wins this game or not, he's he's back into uh playing. He wants to play competitively. It seems like he's more interested in like the competition than the hustle. Because he has like he he is successful enough financially to where he can just play for the joy of playing if he wants to. But I'm still curious in terms of like who probably won that match. Yeah, me me too. Match, game, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I would like to see I if anything, I would have liked to have seen them playing each other more.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because you only got a a couple. The first time Cruz wins, but that was right when when uh Eddie started getting back into it. And at the end when he throws the game and he dumps it.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Right.
SPEAKER_03:You know. So who knows?
SPEAKER_02:Who knows? If you'd like to get in touch with us though, we'd love to hear from you. You can reach out through Facebook, Instagram, or Blue Sky. It's the same handle at all three. It is at 80smontagepod, and 80s is 80S.
SPEAKER_03:Whatever happened to threads, no one knows.
SPEAKER_02:I mean it's there. Yeah. But sneak peek. So you did not know the original film, but I actually swapped it out.
SPEAKER_03:Oh. From what to what? Well, I'll just I almost had you.
SPEAKER_02:You almost had me. The reason why I swapped it out is because so, you know, we're talking about somebody that the Newman's been passed for like over 15 years at this pat at this point. Okay. Um, but we've had a couple other actors pass more recently. And one, I mean, I loved Redford and I loved Diane Keaton, so we'll have to cover both of them at some point. But for now, a film that I've wanted to do for a while, so I was like, let's just do it now. Baby boom.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02:With Diane Keaton.
SPEAKER_03:Is it gonna be baby boom?
SPEAKER_02:It's gonna be baby boom.
SPEAKER_03:I guessed it.
SPEAKER_02:You got it. Good job. So I was tremendously sad when she passed. It felt surprising, even though she was in her late 70s, but she was just such a vibrant, vibrant person. Didn't know her, so I'm speaking of somebody I never met in my entire life.
SPEAKER_03:But her on-screen presence. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And even off-screen, like, you know, seeing her at award shows or whatever, she just had this like this energy about her that like it feels kind of shocking that it's like not there anymore, you know. But I am really excited to get to finally cover this film because I've wanted to for a while. So that's what's next up on deck. And then you know what's crazy? No, is like we're this year is almost ending. So I think we have maybe one more movie. Really? Okay. Yep. Okay. Yep, yep. So on that note, thank you to everyone for hanging with us. Really appreciate that you've chosen to spend your time listening and following along, and we will talk to you again in two weeks' time.