'80s Movie Montage

Thief

• Anna Keizer & Derek Dehanke • Season 6 • Episode 14

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In this episode, Anna and Derek chat about how this early work from Michael Mann set the stage for his future films, if Frank really needed that last score, and much more during their discussion of the James Caan starrer Thief (1981). 

Connect with '80s Movie Montage on Facebook, Bluesky or Instagram! It's the same handle for all three... @80smontagepod.

Anna Keizer and Derek Dehanke are the co-hosts of ‘80s Movie Montage. The idea for the podcast came when they realized just how much they talk – a lot – when watching films from their favorite cinematic era. Their wedding theme was “a light nod to the ‘80s,” so there’s that, too. Both hail from the Midwest but have called Los Angeles home for several years now. Anna is a writer who received her B.A. in Film/Video from Columbia College Chicago and M.A. in Film Studies from Chapman University. Her dark comedy short She Had It Coming was an Official Selection of 25 film festivals with several awards won for it among them. Derek is an attorney who also likes movies. It is a point of pride that most of their podcast episodes are longer than the movies they cover.

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SPEAKER_00:

Now, I get up in the morning, I take a shower, I go to work, I have a job, I have a social security card, and my life is very ordinary, very boring, which is good, because it's solid.

SPEAKER_01:

Your marking time is what you are. You're backing off, you're hiding out, you're waiting for a bus that you hope never comes because you don't want to get on it anyway because you don't want to go anywhere, all right?

SPEAKER_00:

Do you have a license for this?

SPEAKER_02:

Hello and welcome to 80s Movie Montage. This is Derek.

SPEAKER_04:

And this is Anna.

SPEAKER_02:

And that was James Caan as Frank talking to Tuesday Weld as Jesse in 1981's Thief. Thief. Thief.

SPEAKER_04:

Which, to be fair, when she's like, I have a Social Security card now, I think you always did. Like, you would if you were born here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Probably.

SPEAKER_04:

Probably.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Thief. I'm super excited to talk about this one.

SPEAKER_02:

The Heat prequel that we never... Really new existence. I

SPEAKER_04:

mean, it is wild how much of a precursor this is to heat in a lot of ways. I

SPEAKER_02:

was so excited when they said the word heat in the movie.

SPEAKER_04:

There were a lot of times where I was like, oh, and all the things.

SPEAKER_02:

You never crack any safe that you can't get away from within 30 seconds.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

He does not say that, but man, I wish he had.

SPEAKER_04:

No, it's like this really interesting crossover between the story of Heat and the character of Sonny from The Godfather. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And yeah, let's dive in. So very early in the decade, this came out in 1981. And part of the reason why I'm so excited to talk about this movie is because it is the first... Maybe not the last. I think we have other options to talk about Michael Mann.

SPEAKER_02:

We have a couple others. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

I know we have at least one, but I think that might be it. Yeah. But it is actually kind of interesting that this is the first Michael Mann film that we've done because you probably would think that it would have been Manhunter, but it's not. It

SPEAKER_02:

isn't.

SPEAKER_04:

It isn't. And... So two credited writers, Mann is one of them. He has Story and Scream played by... However, before we get to him, it is based on a book. So the way that IMDb has it, it's based on the book The Home Invaders. The full title is The Home Invaders, like, colon, Confessions of a Cat Burglar.

SPEAKER_02:

Which I believe, like, the guy who... wrote this was actually

SPEAKER_04:

his name's frank

SPEAKER_02:

was in prison frank it's

SPEAKER_04:

like um catch me if you can except probably they did and actually i think frank was also the name of that character that movie anyway um frank would you say uh homin how would you say

SPEAKER_02:

something hominem no

SPEAKER_04:

ha haimer

SPEAKER_02:

hoheimer i'm just calling him hoheimer

SPEAKER_04:

okay Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Or ha-ha-mer.

SPEAKER_04:

But yeah, so are you looking at his bio?

SPEAKER_02:

I had read a little bit of it earlier, but I'm assuming that based off of the nature of this movie and the title of that book, Michael Mann changed up a couple things.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh,

SPEAKER_02:

sure. Because Frank was not, in fact, in the movie, a home invader.

SPEAKER_04:

No, no. I mean, I think he would have had... Potentially less sympathy.

SPEAKER_02:

He made it really clear, like, I only steal diamonds.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, he did. And cash.

SPEAKER_02:

And cash.

SPEAKER_04:

And cash. Yes. Thank you for that call out to the film being set in Chicago. It

SPEAKER_02:

was, it was, I said cash kind of like Chicago, but I felt like almost everyone in this movie was like transplanted recently from New York.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Very

SPEAKER_02:

true. I don't know if there was a single Chicago accent in the whole movie.

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe Jim Belushi.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe. Maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

But in any case, yes. So based on this book, the author, Frank, he passed in 2005 and makes sense. This happened. Well, I don't know. I mean, you can swing on this pendulum like Stephen King, who is... A writer has hundreds and hundreds upon credits because his works have been adapted so many times. Yeah. But this is Frank's only credit.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you know, write what you know.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

And he knew burglary.

SPEAKER_04:

So Mann, as mentioned, he takes this book. He makes a screenplay out of it. And... We even when we have like a writer director scenario with one of our movies, I like to kind of split it up because it's not always exactly the same. So it looks like, you know, he did kind of start in the industry more so as a writer. And there's a very clear through line with a lot of what he's interested in, namely, like, cops and robbers honestly like that's kind of what it breaks down to he wrote for Starsky and Hutch the TV series he wrote for Police Story

SPEAKER_02:

probably some cops

SPEAKER_04:

he wrote for I don't know this one Vegas with the S as like a dollar sign

SPEAKER_02:

Vega dollar sign

SPEAKER_04:

well that's You know it's Vegas.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't

SPEAKER_03:

know

SPEAKER_02:

that.

SPEAKER_04:

And, I mean, it's like so on the nose with some of these. Like I said, he wrote for Police Story. He also wrote for Crime Story. So he did that. But then he has gone outside of that for sure. I mean, one– Probably my favorite Michael Mann movie is Heat, but I adore The Last of the Mohicans. And he does. He did write that. I

SPEAKER_02:

had no idea. Obviously,

SPEAKER_04:

again, that's an adaptation. But

SPEAKER_02:

yeah. Yeah. But still the screenplay.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Beautiful film. It's honestly one of those like almost too hard to watch movies for me, especially the

SPEAKER_02:

end. Yeah. The end gets everyone. The

SPEAKER_04:

end is just too much. But beautiful, beautiful film and amazing score. And yes. He has a writing credit for Heat. We will probably many, many times over the course of this episode bring up the similarities to Heat. And I don't mean that as a knock. on this film at all. I think it's really fascinating to see this very early work of his. I

SPEAKER_02:

mean, this was a it was a really good movie. I really enjoyed it. There were some moments throughout where I had a few minor critiques, like maybe when he was looking for the guy at the end for what seemed like two hours in the house. But this is a good movie. And then Heat, if anything, feels like this perfected.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. Exactly that. So he is Oscar nominated, well, for several different categories, but specifically here, he had a Oscar nom for Best Adapted Screenplay for the film The Insider. Oh,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah, that was... Great movie. That was great with Russell Crane. Had one of my favorite courtroom scenes ever when they're talking about jurisdiction and NDAs. Sounds like really... Super exciting stuff. It is. A lot of shouting going on in that scene.

SPEAKER_04:

I remember that was a movie where I literally went into it not knowing anything. I had no clue what I was about to watch, but it was really good. I did not realize, and probably very, I don't know, stupidly so, I didn't know that he wrote and directed Ali.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, the Will Smith, Muhammad Ali film,

SPEAKER_04:

yeah. He also... wrote and directed the film version of Miami Vice with what Colin Farrell and Jamie Foxx I think are the leads potentially let's

SPEAKER_02:

let's go with that why

SPEAKER_04:

not rocket and tubs yeah I never even watched that show

SPEAKER_02:

I never watched the show and I never saw the movie

SPEAKER_04:

and then uh He also, so he does a lot of this. So yes, there will be like a little bit of repetition once we get to his directing credits. But he wrote and directed Public Enemies with Johnny Depp.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So he has a very clear, with some outliers, but a very clear like genre of And

SPEAKER_02:

it's crime. And it's

SPEAKER_04:

crime. Yeah. Okay. So moving on to Michael Mann, because like I said, he also directed this film.

SPEAKER_02:

The director.

SPEAKER_04:

The director. So real quick, just because I am going to get to a couple things. relevant more Oscar noms, but this didn't really fit anywhere else. I didn't realize that he must have been a producer on The Aviator because he had a Best Picture Oscar nom for

SPEAKER_02:

it. Yeah, he was.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. So that's kind of cool. It's really interesting that he was a producer on Scorsese's film. In any case, so he really had a lot. He was very busy. Well, I mean, look, he's been busy for a really long time, but most of the films that we can't cover are like the biggies are in the 90s. So Manhunter is probably the only other film we're going to, at some point, cover of his.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's true. That's fair.

SPEAKER_04:

So that also came very early in his career. And as mentioned, so everything, almost everything.

SPEAKER_02:

Manhunter is basically the first time we were ever exposed to Dr. Hannibal Lecter. It was the first of those, like kind of, and then they had like, You know, the Silence of the Lambs came out and then they had, I think, Red Dragon with Edward Norton. And that Red Dragon movie is basically like the modernized version of Manhunter.

SPEAKER_04:

Did Red Dragon come before or after Hannibal? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm not sure. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04:

I don't need to watch that movie again.

SPEAKER_02:

Nah.

SPEAKER_04:

Silence of the Lambs is great. I don't need to watch the sequel.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

In any case, that's that's not Michael Mann. But so, yes, he directed Manhunter. He did direct Last of the Mohicans Heat. He because he directed The Insider and also was a producer on it. He got a Best Director and Best Picture Oscar nom for that film. So that was like he got three. nominations for the insider including best adapted screenplay uh as mentioned he directed ali so he did not write on this but he did another great film of his probably of his more recent films which i think it's already maybe about 20 years old love collateral

SPEAKER_02:

that is my favorite of his films i didn't realize that he hadn't written that but um yeah that's my favorite

SPEAKER_04:

yeah no it's great it's a great performance by both leads

SPEAKER_02:

yeah

SPEAKER_04:

um It's

SPEAKER_02:

good to see Tom Cruise as the villain. Yeah. I enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_04:

I honestly can't remember. I'm sure we talked about this off mic, but we recently had a conversation about how Cruise has gone away from exploring more, I don't know, different roles. Now he is just like the... It's almost his own version of superhero.

SPEAKER_02:

Ethan Hunt. I need you to trust me one more time. Yeah,

SPEAKER_04:

exactly. So but that's a great performance by him. Again, he directed Miami Vice, the film, Public Enemies, and then more recently, Ferrari. There's so many movies lately about fast cars.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. F1. F1 is one with. Yeah. And then

SPEAKER_04:

Ford versus Ferrari.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. That was a few years ago.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. But do you think it was all kicked off by the Fast and the Furious? I mean, there's always been car movies, but...

SPEAKER_02:

Could be. Maybe. Maybe there's like some market research where like fast cars get people in the theaters.

SPEAKER_04:

Possibly. Okay. Cinematography. I love the way this movie looks. It is... We were just talking about this.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Part of it is... For sure, the cinematographer and part of it, I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, is the cinematographer successfully executing on the vision in some ways. But it's a collaboration, you said.

SPEAKER_04:

My guess is Michael Mann, probably even this early in his career, had a very strong direction, so to speak, that he wanted to take with the cinematography.

SPEAKER_02:

Looking at his filmography now, that would seem to be the case. Yeah. Who knows at the time. In

SPEAKER_04:

some way, because honestly, Heat... so much of heat is actually during the day. So much of this movie is at night. Yeah. And obviously it's same with collateral. So in a lot of ways, this film to me also shares a lot of like DNA with collateral.

SPEAKER_02:

Collateral, um, takes place over a single night. Correct. So you never, yeah, there it's this one. There's no reason for so much of it, except that like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And also that is a, um, That is a major difference is that like obviously collateral has a very clear timeline.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

This one I will say sometimes I was like, how much time has passed? Like I couldn't really get a sense of from start to finish how much time had gone by.

SPEAKER_02:

From like the beginning of the movie, which is a very interesting thing. beginning of just him like cracking a safe which they bought like a real safe and had him use the real equipment to really do that for that intro i'm sure they

SPEAKER_04:

did yeah

SPEAKER_02:

yeah um from that to the end it could be a year it could be three days i don't know

SPEAKER_04:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

probably in three days

SPEAKER_04:

So the DP on this, Donald E. Thorin. This was his first credit. I mean, not to say he hadn't worked in other capacities, but this is his first DP credit.

SPEAKER_02:

We're definitely going to cover him. And we already have, in fact. We have.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Not the first time. Although it's been a minute. Not the first time that we have brought him up. He did pass. He passed in 2016. But a lot of big time names for this guy. And... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think I'm saying that right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay. I have...

SPEAKER_02:

Wasn't that a dwarf from The Hobbit, Thorin? You

SPEAKER_04:

would

SPEAKER_02:

know

SPEAKER_04:

way better than me.

SPEAKER_02:

I think maybe.

SPEAKER_04:

There are definitely other opportunities for us to bring him up. He shot An Officer and a Gentleman. Maybe. Yeah. I would... Well, okay, that probably wouldn't be the next movie I would suggest, but it would be a movie I think at some point I'd like to do.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Against All Odds. Purple Rain is probably the movie that I would suggest next.

SPEAKER_02:

Great songs for both of those, for Against All Odds and Purple Rain. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Very much so. So the one that you alluded to that we've already done... You gonna say it?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, The Golden Child. There you go! The Golden Child! But, you know, there's a movie that could actually do with a remake, although... I don't, you'd get like the benefit of the VFX.

SPEAKER_04:

With the story and the cultural elements.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, you would. You would, for sure. But I think what you'd gain in VFX, you'd lose by not having Murphy like in that time. I

SPEAKER_04:

mean, look, I, how many, is it just Beverly Hills Cop that he's done like decades later, sequel of any

SPEAKER_02:

of his other-

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, that's true, too. Yeah. Okay, so he's done a couple. Okay, so not the biggest fan of coming to, numeral two, America, but I did really like Axel F.

SPEAKER_02:

That was good, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So I would not be opposed to them doing a sequel to The Golden Child.

SPEAKER_02:

The Goldener Child. The Goldener Child.

SPEAKER_04:

He shot Rebecca Thorne, Troop Beverly Hills, Tango and Cash, Scent of a Woman, now we're in the 90s, Boys on the Side, Ace Ventura, When Nature Calls, The First Wives Club, Shaft, and his final credit was the film Head of State. Okay. So this film, so many really interesting stylistic choices. The cinematography was one. I think that's an excellent point that you made. It's very noir-ish. The music.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Not the first time that we have brought this group up either. Tangerine Dream.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it was very synth heavy, which is their thing. Yep. But yeah, I mean, it worked pretty well for like the tone that they were setting for the most part. There were times where it kind of like came in pretty heavy and you're like, holy shit.

SPEAKER_04:

No, it did. I mean, there were times where it was a little extra. Yeah. What it reminded me of, so sorry for the repetition here, but I do really love the movie Heat. And even though I kind of hate the moment, because I absolutely loved De Niro's character. I didn't want him to die. I was really rooting for him. But that end scene where he's been shot by Pacino.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, they're at the airport. He's in the runway. And it's Moby. Oh, yeah,

SPEAKER_04:

yeah. In that final moment, it's like God rippling over the water or something is the name of the song. I love that song. And this very much felt to me like Tangerine Dream walked so Moby could run. It was kind of like it's clear that man has a certain style of music that he wants for his films and some films.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And yeah, I do think it worked really well for this film. It

SPEAKER_02:

was kind of ahead of its time. I mean, this came out in 81. I feel like it very much has like a 70s vibe to it. Like at the time they were making it. I don't know how long production.

SPEAKER_04:

Kind of looks 70s.

SPEAKER_02:

It looks like it, right? Yeah. So I thought it was really effective.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. No, it worked really well. And there likely are going to be other people Times where we can bring them up. So they're like a duo, I believe, Tangerine Dream. Maybe at some point we'll do Risky Business. They composed for that film.

SPEAKER_02:

I know you don't. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm not a fan of that film.

SPEAKER_02:

And I don't know if I've ever seen it from start to finish. I am aware of it, but yeah. My biggest regret is that we're unable to uh, cover because it was 1997, 1977, the Roy Scheider movie sorcerer that they did the score for.

SPEAKER_04:

No,

SPEAKER_02:

I, it is, it is an amazing film about these various, like basically, uh, ex cons thieves who are contracted in a South American country to take these huge work trucks. I think the, the, like the brand is sorcerer. That's why it has that name that, uh, are full of TNT to try to stop an oil fire, like an oil direct that has blown up. They're trying to just like blow the fire out. And so they're all coming from different areas. It is an amazing movie.

SPEAKER_04:

I know you really like

SPEAKER_02:

it. It's so good. You really like it. There's a scene where they're like crossing over this bridge over a river. Holy shit. Anyways. You've

SPEAKER_04:

shown it to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Back to Thief.

SPEAKER_04:

And Handring Dream. Yes. So yes, they composed Risky Business.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

I wouldn't mind doing Firestarter at some point.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that would be so bad. Yeah, we

SPEAKER_04:

should. I mean, okay, it's not like one of the stronger. That's Stephen King too, right? It

SPEAKER_02:

is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And Drew Barrymore is the lead, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, he really had a thing going where he's like, I'm going to write about teen and preteen girls with the power to destroy everything.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And that's great. And George C. Scott, right?

SPEAKER_02:

George C. Scott was like the evil, yeah. I'll watch

SPEAKER_04:

anything with him. And doesn't he have like a little, like, he has like a little tail, like his hair. Isn't his hair pulled back in like a ponytail?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, it is. He does. The origin of the man bun, Firestarter. George C. Scott.

SPEAKER_04:

So they could post on that. They did Vision Quest, which again, very much an option in the future. So the one that we've done, Legend.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that... Might make as much sense as anything for this ethereal, dreamlike...

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_02:

...music, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Potentially, even this year, maybe they'll come up again sooner than I thought because I really want to do Near Dark for our Halloween series, which is not coming up too far away. It's not. We only have a couple more before we get there.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And then this is so interesting because there was a 1989 film, which I did not... even think about this when i brought up the other version just a couple minutes ago there's another film called catch me if you can

SPEAKER_02:

what

SPEAKER_04:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

what's it about is about the same thing

SPEAKER_04:

i don't think so but they composed on it so

SPEAKER_02:

no it seems a little bit different because the one that we know with leonardo dicaprio and tom hanks was about like identity theft and check fraud or something check fraud more than anything

SPEAKER_03:

else

SPEAKER_02:

this uh 1989 one is about a hot shot car racer persuading the class president of a small minnesota high school to gamble on illegal car races to raise money for their school facing closure.

SPEAKER_04:

They don't want their school to close.

SPEAKER_02:

Catch me if you can.

SPEAKER_04:

Frank Abernathy. That's the name of the guy from the other Catch Me If You Can. I knew his first name was

SPEAKER_02:

Frank. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04:

Anyway, film editing. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

what do we got? What's his name?

SPEAKER_04:

Not to be rude to somebody who's still with us. He's 93 years old.

SPEAKER_02:

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

But Dove Honing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

could have tightened up this film a little bit.

SPEAKER_02:

It's true. It's very

SPEAKER_04:

true. That is probably my biggest knock on the film.

SPEAKER_02:

Particularly as you get into the second half of the movie.

SPEAKER_04:

Correct.

SPEAKER_02:

There were some scenes that just dragged on. I don't know if it was an attempt to build suspense or just really hone in on a specific tone or atmosphere, but... Maybe like there should be a balance because I know like movies now, like everything's like fucking shifting around every like three seconds. Like you never know, never like just holds on a moment or a shot

SPEAKER_04:

is a little bit indicative of that time in film. Yeah. Film history.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

But and what's funny. So I'll go through his credits. He kind of perfected upon maybe what I would see is like opportunity to improve in this film because you're absolutely right. Like even like, look, I can understand to some degree that. When they're doing the big heist, the biggie, where they had to get through like, I don't know, five levels of hell or whatever it was to-

SPEAKER_02:

They had five alarms.

SPEAKER_04:

There you go. Five alarms.

SPEAKER_02:

Five different alarm systems that they had to neutralize.

SPEAKER_04:

Correct.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And they kind of showed us every single step.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my God. Okay. So like, yeah, one of them- He was checking wires to determine if it was a wire for the alarm or the phone. That is a phone. I'm getting 40. That's a phone. And then Belushi, like, okay, let's watch him literally peel apart to get the next wire. Okay, he checks it. Phone. After the third one, I'm like, oh, my God.

SPEAKER_04:

But even more egregiously, like you said at the end, I do think it's what you think it is. I think it is meant to build tension. But when he is in Leo's house.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And he's just like trying to clear the house to try to nail down where he is.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

That's a long ass sequence.

SPEAKER_02:

Leo's fucking hiding behind like something the whole goddamn time. He's not even moving. And then there's like just some random lady having dinner or having cereal. Yeah, that was so creepy. And he just looks at her. She looks at him. Let's just all move on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Back to watching television. Uh, okay. But anyway, back to honing. So a lot of, uh, well, you know what? Probably the next one that we will do. So he cut young doctors in love, but my, my guess is that we'll probably cover him again with Manhunter.

SPEAKER_02:

Probably. Um,

SPEAKER_04:

and you'll see that he has a, he Manhunter included a couple other credits with Michael Mann, uh, This is another film I'm not a huge fan of, Overboard, so I don't know when we're going to do it.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, we don't have to.

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, if it's not a favorite for either one of us, which one of us is going to convince the other one?

SPEAKER_04:

It's so biased or subjective, I should say, because, look, this movie included, every single film we cover... Almost with that exception, it has problematic elements to it.

SPEAKER_02:

We didn't know what we were getting ourselves into with this one, but there are a couple of scenes in particular we were both like,

SPEAKER_04:

whoa! Yeah, yeah. There's some... I mean, we could just say there's like several instances throughout the film of very vile, slurred language. It's very racist. Very racist.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And... So am I supposed to be super shocked when criminals in late 70s, early 80s Chicago are saying racist things? No, I guess I should not be. Right,

SPEAKER_04:

right. To our 2025 ears, it was a little jarring to just hear that, but

SPEAKER_02:

you're right. I mean, I think we all know with what's going on currently that there are for sure people saying that same shit shit right now

SPEAKER_04:

yeah no it's it's really disheartening that that is still a current day thing but um but then you get like other like when he's having when they were having that conversation like the clip you pulled for the beginning of the film part of that conversation where he's like trying to convince her to be with him She says to him, I can't have kids. Without missing a beat, he just goes, okay, we'll adopt, which is incredibly progressive for that time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Yes, it was.

SPEAKER_04:

You would maybe, maybe expect, although it does sound like he grew up in the system, so that's probably why he was so open to adoption because when he has his outburst at the adoption agency.

SPEAKER_02:

He came up through that system.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. So that kind of is the reason why I think he's so open to it. But like a lot of men of that era...

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, he grew up in that system and look how well he turned out.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. Yeah. I think it's kind of a weird commentary on that. But a lot of men, if a woman told them, I can't have biological children, they'd be like, see ya. You know?

SPEAKER_02:

Swipe right.

SPEAKER_04:

So... Okay. Let's finish up with Honing. So he also cut... She's out of control. He cut The Last of the Mohicans. He... Well, he's retired, I'm going to say. I think that at 93 years old, he's probably not cutting anything else. So that's why I feel confident saying his only Oscar nomination was Best Film Editing for The Fugitive.

SPEAKER_02:

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Wow. So he did that. He did The Crow.

SPEAKER_02:

That first movie was really cool. And then they did like a remake within the last year or so. And it was really bad.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, I didn't want... Did you watch it? The

SPEAKER_02:

new one? No. Yeah. Okay. I've seen enough to get like how different it is. And to be fair, like the 90s version, it wasn't like it was a shot for shot version of the graphic novel, but I feel like it was a lot more...

SPEAKER_04:

Probably a tough editing gig.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Oh, with. Yeah. With Brandon. Yeah. Brandon Lee passing away. Yeah. The filming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yep. So here's what I was alluding to earlier, because Honing cut this film. He also cut Heat.

SPEAKER_02:

So. Are you really going to ignore the one in between those two? The Oscar worthy Street Fighter movie?

SPEAKER_04:

I did

SPEAKER_02:

not even list it.

SPEAKER_04:

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02:

That movie was so bad. It wasn't his fault.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm actually kind of shocked. Well, look, I think that's a common thread with a lot of people who think Keat was overlooked at the Oscars in a lot of categories. I would say editing is one of them because I do think that that's a really well-cut film. I don't think there's any wasted...

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, it's a really good film. I would have expected it to be at least nominated for Best Picture. I would have expected it would have won for Best Sound.

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe it did. And to be fair, it's not... I'm thinking about a lot of the performances.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

But I am surprised that it wasn't nominated at least for editing. He also cut Dark City. And then, like I said... I feel pretty confident that he's probably retired at this point. So his last credit was collateral damage.

SPEAKER_02:

If you're 93, probably the only way that you're really like still working is if you're in front of the camera.

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe like he's doing a Mel Brooks. Okay. So we're at the stars of the film.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

I mentioned this because I guess we didn't maybe say this explicitly. Neither of us had ever seen this film.

SPEAKER_02:

It's true.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. So this is a brand new movie to both of us. And part of the reason why I was really excited to watch it, obviously love Michael Mann. I

SPEAKER_02:

didn't know it was one of his movies. I knew of the movie and I knew that James Caan was in it, but I didn't realize that I was going to be watching a Heat prequel.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. And as far as like James Caan is concerned. So I'm sure people think of him in three instances. Probably the first is The Godfather as Sonny. the eldest Corleone son, that is probably the first way I think about him. Probably the second way I think about him is Will Ferrell's dad, an elf.

SPEAKER_02:

I apologize, but you got to flip those for me.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, you think of elf first?

SPEAKER_02:

Only because at this point, I've seen it probably more than even The Godfather. Like we see it every... So yeah, I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

But I think of The Godfather first, elf second. And then although this is not really a film that's like on my radar a lot. Probably a lot of people think of him thirdly from Misery.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yes. Yeah, I try to not think about that.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

It was a really good adaptation, a really good book, but I can't. No, I get it.

SPEAKER_04:

I get it. And that's why I was very excited to watch him in something else.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Because I just don't... I don't know a lot about his filmography outside of those three instances. And I just... You know, and it's– look, it's totally fine. It's totally fine that there are certain actors out there that just kind of inhabit a certain kind of energy. And I feel like he's one of those guys. Because even in Elf, he's this, like, curmudgeonly kind of hot-headed dude. Yeah. And he is– basically Sonny from The Godfather in a lot of ways. At one point, he's even called Sonny.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, that was amazing. As like a young man. Listen, Sonny.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, not actually Sonny, although that'd be hilarious if they just like accidentally called him a different character name and they just kept it in. But he is really good in this. I do think he does a great job of carrying the film. I mean, he's in, I think, almost every single scene. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, he's great in this. He is Frank. He passed away not too long ago. He passed in 2022. And let's go through his filmography. So he started off with a lot of TV work when he was younger, a lot of like one offs, two offs, that kind of thing. So he's in the film El Dorado. But then here we go. Early 70s. He instantly gets fame and an Oscar nomination. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fair for The Godfather Part Two because he does die in the first movie. But

SPEAKER_02:

yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

That end scene where Michael is like thinking back like so at this point

SPEAKER_02:

when they're at the table, dinner table or something.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. So it's the closing scene. And Michael is like kind of reminiscing because he just killed his other brother, Fredo. And he's thinking about basically like before everything happened. Hmm. Yeah. I doubt maybe it looks really seamless in terms of the way that they set up that shot. So I don't know if they filmed that in conjunction with the first film, knowing that there was going to be a second film.

SPEAKER_02:

Possibly. I don't

SPEAKER_04:

know. But so he's part of that franchise. He did Rollerball, Alien Nation, Dick Tracy. We mentioned it earlier. Misery, Honeymoon in Vegas. He's in Bottle Rocket. I don't. It's been a million years since I've seen that movie. So I don't remember. He's probably Owen Wilson's dad. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

Mr. Henry. Oh,

SPEAKER_04:

he's in Eraser, Mickey Blue Eyes, The Way of the Gun. What

SPEAKER_02:

do you think the one-liner was in Eraser? Because that's a Schwarzenegger movie. You've been

SPEAKER_04:

erased.

SPEAKER_02:

That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Correct.

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04:

He was an elf. He did voice work. He was in the kids movie, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs.

SPEAKER_02:

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04:

And the sequel. And then they have, I think, straight-to-video type stuff that he also participated in. And then, not his final credit, but I do love that he was in the film Sicilian Vampire. Oh. I just love that. And, yeah, I mean, what did you think about his performance in this film?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it did remind me a lot of the Sonny character.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And... It was it was interesting because on one hand, he's like this professional, right, this professional safecracker thief. But he acted and there was never any like drugs or drinking or anything that they showed. So he was just like legitimately a hothead who went out of his way to antagonize in situations that seemed kind of in contrast to. to him being this consummate professional. It's like, how have you been so successful for this long? Because you kind of seem like an asshole.

SPEAKER_04:

It's funny because that is a major difference. Okay, so going back to Heat. To me, he is his own version of the Robert De Niro character because he is so straight-laced in a lot of ways with no drinking, no drugs, none of that. But yes, the major difference is that until he doesn't, Robert De Niro keeps his cool the entire time. And throughout this entire movie, James Caan, it's not that he always is like, I mean, look, like I mentioned, he has like a major outburst at the adoption agency. He can't hold on to his anger. But a lot of the times it's just him being just abrasive. Yeah. Or like, you know, and like I am not on the

SPEAKER_02:

cops. When he pulled Jesse?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Out of that club? Oh,

SPEAKER_04:

yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And that was like a straight up kidnapping. Yeah. Some guy in the bar is like trying to intervene because he just sees this crazy guy come in and start yelling with this woman who's saying like she doesn't want to leave with them. Yeah. And he just fucking pulls out a gun. Yeah. On the guy. And and then like hit somebody else when he like throws her in the car because he puts her in the car and then she gets out. Yeah. So he like grabs her and like. that, yeah, that was, there was some, some wacky stuff going on there.

SPEAKER_04:

No, for sure. No, that's a great instance. So I'm not, I'm not this character's fan per se, but, um, part of it is like when, like for instance, when the cops pull him over and they're basically like, we get a cut, you know? And he's like, I don't know what you're like. Like he just, um,

SPEAKER_02:

I want a car business.

SPEAKER_04:

He, yeah, he, except with Jesse and, um, Honestly, even more so, what was his name? Barry, Jim Belushi's character. He has no allegiance to anybody. And so he's just like basically-

SPEAKER_02:

Willie Nelson.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, that's true. I'm sorry, Okta. Or- Okla. Okla. Sorry, I'm thinking the security system for work. So he's just like- very like fuck you to everybody else. And I mean, he, that is part of

SPEAKER_02:

that. There were some times where I'm like, I bet you can take

SPEAKER_04:

it down a notch.

SPEAKER_02:

I bet this all would have like been a lot smoother if you just like that.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm not saying give the cops a handout, but like he, he has no chill about anything. Yeah. And to be fair, He knows that about himself because he tells Jesse the whole story about while he was in prison, you have to, you know, according to him, get to a point where you don't care about anything. You don't even care about yourself.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, even the Leo character references that towards the end of the movie when he lays it out, when he basically has told him like. And that's why Leo set him up with finding a kid and all this stuff. He did that just to-

SPEAKER_04:

Ensnare him.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, ensnare him so that now he did have something that he didn't care about because he knew that he was one of those guys that doesn't care about anything.

SPEAKER_04:

And that, again, is such an interesting parallel to Heat because throughout the whole fucking movie, De Niro is saying, you have to be able to like, I'm not going to say it as eloquently as he does. But you have to be able to drop everything in 30 seconds when you see that heat coming around the corner. And obviously he's talking about the cops, not talking about the mob. But it's all the same. And so that's another, I think, super interesting parallel to that film. And they do kind of respond in equal ways. I think in my own story headcanon that he does eventually find Jesse.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe.

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe. is my thought. And also, that was so funny to me because it was like, who do you know that you could call them in the middle of the night and tell them, to drop what they're doing, which is probably sleeping at that moment, but then come over and then for months at a time, go with his wife and child to some unknown destination and take care. Like, who do you know that would be so loyal to you that

SPEAKER_02:

would do that? They were getting like 30 grand a month.

SPEAKER_04:

True.

SPEAKER_02:

40 grand the next month.

SPEAKER_04:

How bizarre to have someone like that that you can call to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, if someone called us right now and said like, okay, you got to drop everything. You're going to get 30 grand the first. I'm like, I'm listening. I'm

SPEAKER_04:

not listening. Anyway, so yes, it was just he was a really interesting character. And I can't appreciate that they had qualities about him that I liked in others. Like he's a complicated character. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Just talking about Frank.

SPEAKER_04:

Just talking about Frank. Okay, so moving on to Jessie, who is Frank's love interest. You mentioned her at the opening, Tuesday Weld. Tuesday's a nickname. Real name is Susan.

SPEAKER_02:

Susan Kerweld.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. And this is really the first time I've seen her in anything. I think I've heard the name, really didn't know much about her, but I thought she did really good. Hmm. Do you not agree?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, she is one of at least two people that I have seen in this movie and another movie. She is Robert Duvall's wife in Falling Down.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, I didn't know that. I mean, I had that credit listed, but I didn't know who she played.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay. Yeah, I mean, I was kind of just a little bit looking into her background and... She was a child performer. Sounds like she was probably the breadwinner for her family. Did not have the best upbringing in terms of like she was just treated as an adult from a very young age. And also for like her early career had a certain kind of like appeal. So she played a ton of like sex kitten type roles. roles.

SPEAKER_02:

In

SPEAKER_04:

fact, she was in a film called Sex Kittens Go to College.

SPEAKER_02:

Yipes.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. So that was like how she was looked at in the industry for a while. Let me go through some of her credits. I had to just put this one down because I think this was, I don't know, in a way of speaking, her breakout role. She was in a film called Rally Round the Flag Boys. The only reason why I call out that film is because she has one of the more interesting... Her character in that film is Comfort Goodpasture.

SPEAKER_02:

That's like a Bond character's name or something.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, it is. So she was in that. The Private Lives of Adam and Eve, which I thought was a very interesting title. Already mentioned, Sex Kittens Go to College. She was on a TV series called The Many Loves of, I think it's Dobie Gillis.

SPEAKER_02:

Wait, what? Many Loves of Dobie Gillis. Interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Do you know that?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I know the Dobie Gillis character. I didn't know that there was a Many Loves of Dobie Gillis.

SPEAKER_04:

How do you know that character?

SPEAKER_02:

Because as a kid growing up, there were like five channels. And so there'd be reruns of it. Oh, got

SPEAKER_04:

it.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I remember like the Dobie Gillis show is just like a sitcom.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

She was in the film The Cincinnati Kid. She also, I mean, she's still with us, but I think she's... Also retired at this point. So her only Oscar nomination best supporting actress for Looking for Mr. Goodbar. She was in Once Upon a Time in America, which technically speaking, we could do at some point in the future. To your point, she's in Falling Down, Feeling Minnesota, and then her last... She did do also like a ton of TV work throughout her career, but her last film credit, Intimate Affairs.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

And yeah, I... You know, what's funny is, like, again, I'm sorry, but she, as the romantic interest, also, to me, has a lot of similarities to, is it Amy Brennan? Robert De Niro's love interest in Heat? I think so,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

I mean, in this film, they seem more aligned as, like, they're a couple, they get married... Although through

SPEAKER_02:

he's been in that kind of life before. Yes. With like drugs. Yeah. Drug dealer. Basically, it sounded like. But that's

SPEAKER_04:

hence her speech. Yeah. At the beginning. Yeah. This where she's like, no, I like my boring life. Like, I don't want to be in this anymore. But they do. He talks her into it. And

SPEAKER_02:

which is weird because that's what he wanted to get to also. Yeah. So I don't know what he was trying. Like, it's. Yeah. It was weird that he could have just said, like, yeah, that's what my goal is. That's what I want, and so I'm

SPEAKER_04:

out right now. It's interesting because, again, another parallel with Heat. It's like De Niro– I mean, De Niro– wanted to do that last score, but I don't think he needed to. It seemed like he was very smart about his money. I

SPEAKER_02:

think if you were really smart about all this, you would tell everyone that you want to do two last scores and then you get the one done and you're like, no, I'm actually out.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, that is very smart.

SPEAKER_02:

So just if you're a criminal, any criminals listen to this. Just don't do that last score. Just

SPEAKER_04:

don't tell anybody that you're not going to do the last score.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_04:

yeah. Yeah, and same thing in this film where... You know, it seems like he's extremely smart with his money. He says, I put my money in the bank.

SPEAKER_02:

He's got all these businesses. He owns the bar. He owns a car lot.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. So it's like, why did you even... okay, so you have a house and you have a wife and you have a kid, it sounds like you're already set up pretty well. Like you didn't have to do that last score. And honestly,

SPEAKER_02:

I'm- You could have definitely lived off of like the legitimate

SPEAKER_04:

businesses. Yes, 100%. And that's why I'm curious if, you know, when he has that first meeting with Leo and Leo's telling him like, here's how I do things. And he's like, well, I don't know. I'll get back to you. What would have happened if he just said, no, I'm, or not even called, you know, if he just- Decided I don't I don't want to do this anymore. I have too much to lose. So I guess we wouldn't have a movie. But in any case, yeah, she to me. In some ways, share some qualities with that other character, and he just with kind of being dragged along, although she does have more understanding of what this life is like.

SPEAKER_02:

She did, which is why, like, I didn't I feel like her character should have understood what was happening at the end.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Because she had been part of that, I feel like she should have had kind of almost an instant understanding of like, oh, this is what's happening.

SPEAKER_04:

And honestly, they should have probably talked about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Like, they should have had like the Val Kilmer, Ashley Judd thing. Yeah. Like, they even had a contingency plan. Yeah. Like, talk about having all your contingencies in order. Like, they at some point talked about the fact that if he, like... What was that conversation? What would that be like? We're like, okay, so if I get pinched or like if I am in a situation where you are being held up in a room with cops and they're waiting for me to show and you see me and you're trying to tell me that the cops are there, you slide your hand across a bar. Like, I mean, so specific.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Anyway,

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it is smart because maybe you can't hear, but maybe you have like some line of sight. So there's like,

SPEAKER_04:

but it's like that it had to, it would only have worked in that very specific scenario where she's on a balcony and she slides her hand across the

SPEAKER_02:

bar. We're all doing it now. We're doing it as we're speaking to the mic. What other

SPEAKER_04:

instances would that work where nobody would even catch that? Like if they were like in a field somewhere and she just went like that with her hand, they'd all be like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I don't know how much time she spends in the field.

SPEAKER_04:

Anyway, that's Tuesday Weld. Okay, moving on to Willie Nelson. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

such an interesting cast, casting decision. I mean- He was fine. It was, it was like, I don't, yeah, I almost don't know how to articulate my thoughts on him being like this. Cause I think of Willie Nelson is just like super into weed and music.

SPEAKER_04:

Sure. I think that's accurate. And he's still very much with us. He's 92 years old.

SPEAKER_02:

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. I think he's still even touring. Isn't he touring right now with Bob Dylan

SPEAKER_02:

and stuff? He might be,

SPEAKER_04:

yeah. So... I'm going to have to give a little disclaimer. He does have 139 acting credits. However...

SPEAKER_02:

Music videos?

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

There you go.

SPEAKER_04:

Over 80 of them are music videos. But he has done other things. A lot of the other music video acting credits are also just himself in projects. So even when you take out the 80 music videos, there's a lot where he's just kind of, you know, a caricature of himself. And then there are roles like this where he's actually... I mean, yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

if I haven't seen him, I don't think I've seen him in like like a serious, more serious role like this. If it was someone who wasn't Willie Nelson, I probably wouldn't even thought twice about the performance of that character. So maybe that means it was a pretty good performance.

SPEAKER_04:

You I do think people are critiqued much more harshly.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

When they cross over from like music to this. Yeah. I thought his I mean, he has actually very little screen time. He's basically in two scenes. And in one of them, he is like moments away from death.

SPEAKER_02:

They're intense, though, because he's like in jail. He reaches out to Frank from prison and is telling him that he's not going to live long enough to reach the end of his prison sentence. And he doesn't want to die in prison.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

that's kind of heavy.

SPEAKER_04:

Very. I mean, Frank. So so to give some context, because people there might be people who don't You should watch the movie before you listen to this podcast.

SPEAKER_02:

Don't depend on this podcast to fully understand the movie. Come on.

SPEAKER_04:

But basically, Okla is Frank's mentor.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And he taught him, like he said, everything he knows. And so he is in prison and Frank gets a letter and he can tell that. Like, something's up. And so he goes to visit him. I thought that interaction was so fascinating. There is an intensity that I think Willie Nelson has where, honestly, there's nothing besides me just having this initial reaction. It almost felt like there was more intimacy between them than I thought that scene was going to have. Like, they're so close to the, like... The partition between them and Willie Nelson is just his eyes are glued on him.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

The entire time. And he has kind of this like little smile on his face the whole time. Like you can tell he's very happy to see him. And there is a like it's like kind of almost I think even more so than any time he's with Jesse. He smiles. He laughs. Frank. You know, like he and he has like shows a little bit of softness to him. And that's kind of the only scene I see that in. So there was a really interesting dynamic between the two of

SPEAKER_03:

them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And and yeah, to your point, he reveals that like. He has he has a heart condition and he's probably not going to make it the 10 months.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know what the. I can't remember exactly what it was, but all I know is that when he got out of prison and had collapsed.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And then was in the hospital with like a bowl with like blood everywhere. That

SPEAKER_04:

didn't exactly resonate for me. Yeah. I was like, I don't think that that's hot. Anyway, I don't know. But yeah. So Frank, and you know that I love when you see that, when you see, and again, shares a ton of similarity with Heat where these guys who have trust in each other and it's very, well, the next person we're going to talk about is Barry, right? They really go to bat for each other. And Frank pulls through. I mean, it's unfortunate because he is out for, I don't know, it seems like mere moments before he collapses. But Frank does it. And it's a really kind of interesting scene when they're in the courtroom and the lawyer and the judge are talking about... I don't know if it's like a dismissal. I don't know what it is. Early release,

SPEAKER_02:

I guess. Yeah, it was for an early release. And they were doing this thing where the judge would rest his head in his hands with a certain number of fingers, kind of. The

SPEAKER_04:

lawyer did it first.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. And then the judge responded with a different number of fingers, kind of, displayed. And so... we realized that was them negotiating the bribe that the judge would give.

SPEAKER_04:

I thought that was so genius. That might be one of my favorite moments in the entire film. Because at first we're like, what the fuck are they doing?

SPEAKER_02:

It was very obvious that like, what the fuck is this attorney doing? And then the judge does it back and we're like, there's something going on. I

SPEAKER_04:

was like, oh, that's ingenious. And then, you know, even at the end, so when When Frank is walking off the lawyer and Laura's like, it's going to be six grand. He's like six grand. Here's 10, you know, and tells him to go buy himself a nice suit. Like he he's does not care about how much it costs to get his friend out.

SPEAKER_02:

Like favorite. My favorite part was the attorney basically saying like, yeah, I got to pay six grand to Earl Warren over there, which. Is that the name? Yeah, it would have been a knock because that was a U.S. Supreme Court justice.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, you're right. You're right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

With it being a joke about how much he's not a U.S. Supreme Court justice because of how crooked he is.

SPEAKER_04:

Some things never change.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I'm trying to say that I question the legitimacy of our actual U.S. Supreme Court justices in this moment.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, moving on to

SPEAKER_02:

Barry.

SPEAKER_04:

Jim Belushi! This was really fun to see him in this role.

SPEAKER_02:

He was like... He looked like Elvis in this

SPEAKER_04:

movie. He definitely had the 70s going on with the sideburns

SPEAKER_02:

and the hair. Oh my god, the big burns.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, the big burns. And yeah, so he is Frank's other... I don't know what you call him... Not cohort, but like...

SPEAKER_02:

Like his partner.

SPEAKER_04:

His partner,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah. His literal partner in crime.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, absolutely. And he's really good in this. He's very understated. He is just as proficient as Frank. Frank is more senior, so I think he has a little bit more experience, but he is completely reliable. He's not a fuck-up. He's basically the Val Kilmer to... Robert De Niro and he and because like the other guys well can't blame the other guys like the one gets the shit beat out of him and true and then Tom Sizemore gets nailed as well

SPEAKER_02:

but talking about heat right now yeah just to be clear

SPEAKER_04:

but Barry is like yeah like that that's it seems like that's kind of the relationship that they have and I was so sad spoiler alert he dies and

SPEAKER_02:

Dramatically.

SPEAKER_04:

Dramatically. And yeah, so it's not a huge role, but he is like an important part of the film because, again, he's one of the very, very few people that Frank has like an allegiance to and trusts, to be honest. Belushi, we have brought him up before, but it's been a really long time. So, you know, I was saying to you off mic that I think I always had a misinformed impression that he kind of rode the coattails of his brother into the industry, but I don't think that's true. Because if you look at his credits, he started kind of the same time as his brother and just went in a different direction with his work. But he started early TV series, Who's Watching the Kids? I don't think we talked about him in Trading Places because I think it's a small role, but he does have a bit. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. About Last Night, which we could do at some point, as well as Jumpin' Jack Flash. I'm almost positive we did bring him up for Little Shop of Horrors.

SPEAKER_02:

I think so.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I think we did. He is in The Principal, Red Heat.

SPEAKER_02:

That's actually a really interesting movie. I don't know how I would watch it now. It's

SPEAKER_04:

also Chicago Cops, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it was- And Arnold

SPEAKER_04:

Schwarzenegger.

SPEAKER_02:

Possibly the first Hollywood picture ever filmed on location in Moscow. Oh, okay, for parts of it. Yeah, but- I don't know. It would be interesting to try to watch that now. That was during a period of supposed cooperation. So, you know, a movie will come out like, oh, we're

SPEAKER_04:

all

SPEAKER_02:

the same.

UNKNOWN:

Yay.

SPEAKER_04:

He was in, so I have like just a huge chunk of films for him. K-9, Mr. Destiny, Only the Lonely, Curly Sue, Canadian Bacon. He reteams kind of with Schwarzenegger and Jingle All the Way. I think he's the Santa Claus

SPEAKER_02:

in it? Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_04:

But more recently in his career, he's done much more television. So he has been on a number of series, Total Security, Beggars and Choosers, The big one is according to Jim

SPEAKER_02:

that that show is like an infection that spreads across TV and is just on all the time on like everywhere it was there was a time where it's like can I just get away from the show

SPEAKER_04:

I yeah it's been heavy in syndication do yeah but he was on that the defenders the I don't know if it's not a reboot but I guess like the long like decade not decade No, maybe two decades later. Twin Peaks? Oh, yeah. Yes. Sorry. Sometimes I have to work things out in my head before I say it out loud. So he was on that, but then he was in a film called The Chronology of Water. Okay. And has just done a ton of TV work. Okay, we're getting towards the end of our cast, but we do have the big baddie, Leo. Robert Prosky. He has passed 2008. And yeah, he he's great in this.

SPEAKER_02:

This was his first big movie. He he was in like entertainment. He was on a lot of TV, I think, you know, better than me. But I think this was like his first like. major motion picture that he would have been

SPEAKER_04:

in. And I think he kind of started his career a little bit later in life.

SPEAKER_02:

He was 50 when he was in this.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. I think he was

SPEAKER_02:

like... He looked way older than 50. He did. He did. I

SPEAKER_04:

think he was like really early 40s even when he had his first credit. So... But... He has come up before and he could come up again in the future. So

SPEAKER_02:

to all those hopeful actors out there, just wait till you're 50 and then you get your big break.

SPEAKER_04:

If you're a guy. So he was in the film Hanky Panky. The one that we've talked about, I think it was just our last Halloween series. Christine.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. This guy, he must have been like a really nice guy because he plays such a convincing piece of shit.

SPEAKER_04:

yeah i like to think he's a nice guy

SPEAKER_02:

yeah because i i don't think he was like legitimately this evil he was he just he gave off like in christine and in this it's like i don't trust this guy he's like he's just very good at being creepy i think he was a good guy um in last action hero okay

SPEAKER_04:

i did i do have that one probably the other film that we can cover with him is the natural

SPEAKER_02:

I don't think he's a good guy in that.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, man. He was an outrageous fortune. This makes sense. I think, was he one of the bigger characters? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

What?

SPEAKER_04:

Hill Street Blues. He was on that TV show. Oh, we also covered him. He is a good guy in broadcast news. Yeah, he is. Yeah, I really like it. Go check that one out. That was with Jennifer. Big Shots, The Great Outdoors. So we could probably do that at some point. Gremlins 2, The New Batch. Far and Away. Hoffa. You mentioned it a second ago. Last Action Hero. Rudy. Mrs. Doubtfire. The 1994 Miracle on 34th Street.

SPEAKER_02:

How many versions are there of that movie?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, at least two.

SPEAKER_02:

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_04:

There you go. I like my Natalie Wood one. Yeah. Dead Man Walking, Veronica's Closet, and then his final credit was a film called The Skeptic. Okay, so finally, Tom Signorelli... He plays a Taglia, which sounds so much like one of the other mob heads in The Godfather. I think it– or is it to Taglia? I think–

SPEAKER_02:

It's to Taglia from The Godfather,

SPEAKER_04:

yeah. So he passed in 2010. He's basically like– he works under Leo, and he is the first contact that Frank makes with this like group of–

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the professionalism involved in this illegal stolen diamonds trade makes things slightly complicated at times because the guy that he gave the diamonds to-

SPEAKER_04:

Gags.

SPEAKER_02:

Gags, tragically fell from the 13th floor, I think, of a building- And so then it was like an accounting issue. Like, hey, we need to reconcile this accounting issue. You need to give me my money, basically, is what Frank said to, not to Taglia, but just a Taglia without the T.

SPEAKER_04:

I appreciate that Frank's like, I don't fucking care who these people are. I'm getting my money.

SPEAKER_02:

And they're both like, I don't know what you're talking about. I just run a business.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I just run a business too. I just run a car business, but you owe me 185 grand. I just have this steel thing. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04:

Plating.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, plating.

SPEAKER_04:

That's the only thing about that scene. It's like, okay, so I get why Frank pulled the gun on him. I get why Frank pulled the gun on his henchman or whoever came in to try to save him. But then he clears the room and he still is just pointing his gun at the people in the fucking office.

SPEAKER_02:

Some lady's getting some coffee. By the way, as an aside- A lot of coffee in this movie.

SPEAKER_04:

A lot of coffee. I

SPEAKER_02:

don't think, did we ever see him eat food once or is it just like constantly like, give me some coffee?

SPEAKER_04:

No, and again, another similarity with Heat in terms of, I think Michael Mann really likes scenes in diners.

SPEAKER_02:

He, look, his favorite thing is apparently having serious conversations in a diner at 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, very much so. Yeah, I mean, honestly, if it hasn't come through yet, if anybody out there is a fan of Heat, you've got to watch this movie.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

You really do. It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

You owe it to yourself.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, like just the same DNA. And again, they are two separate films, but you can very clearly see the through line between them. And in any case... Tom Signorelli. So some of his credits. I just think this is an interesting title. The Beautiful, the Bloody and the Bear.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I didn't. I was not going to pick that last one.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. He was in the Anderson tapes, Bang the Drum Slowly, Alice, Sweet Alice, The Cotton Club, The Pickup Artist. He did some TV. We

SPEAKER_02:

could do The Pickup Artist, right?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Yes, we could. We could also do The Cotton Club. He did TV work, but he had a little bit of a stint on a show called Dream Street. And then he was in Dick Tracy, and his final credit was Sleepers.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay. I had no idea that this guy had... that kind of prolific filmography. Like I, he kind of like you see him in the movie. It's like, this guy looks like a guy that you would see in exactly this kind of role in this kind of movie.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes. Yes. I have no idea what the other roles entailed. Maybe there was some crossover in terms of character, but

SPEAKER_02:

perhaps

SPEAKER_04:

synopsis after years in prison, Ace safe cracker, Frank, owns a car dealership and a cocktail lounge, which are fronts for high stakes jewelry heists. He wants to complete one last big heist for the mob before he goes straight.

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm. I mean, what did we talk about earlier? Yep. It's a mistake. It's a mistake. It never, it never goes, like, that's just like the plot of so many of these movies. No one's ever like...

SPEAKER_04:

Frank

SPEAKER_02:

is in the middle of his career of crime and he just wants to get maybe three more years out of this. Fucking set me up for some sequels, man.

SPEAKER_04:

No, you're absolutely right. It's a bit of a cliche, the one last big heist. It's

SPEAKER_02:

like the cop is like, he's supposed to retire next week.

SPEAKER_04:

And unfortunately, it's like a thread that you can't pull because it's like... especially when they set up these characters, like that is probably my biggest problem with Heat is that I don't buy that De Niro would... First of all, they never would have brought on that guy for that one job.

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_04:

Because he was not part of the crew. They didn't know him. He was volatile. There's no fucking way they would have brought him on that job. But that

SPEAKER_02:

happens in all these movies too.

SPEAKER_04:

And you start pulling that thread and you kind of have to just go along with the movie.

SPEAKER_02:

Where's the normal guy? We don't have the normal guy. We just got Mickey over here.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. We just have this rando. So, you know. And same thing with De Niro being like, I then become like obsessed with like getting him I'm like no if the way that they set up that character he's way too smart he'd walk away you know like it

SPEAKER_02:

within 30 seconds

SPEAKER_04:

And like we said earlier in the show, same thing here with Frank, where it's like, I don't know. You set him up as he's very straight-laced. He's very smart with his money. He's a hothead, but he still is smart about the choices he makes, like outside of his interactions with people. Yeah. So I just didn't buy it that he would have to do this job.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, but it is a really good film. I think that it's really, really interesting to see such an early work from Michael Mann

SPEAKER_02:

to

SPEAKER_04:

know where he went after this. So I really, really enjoyed watching it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I really liked it. Like I said, I was aware of the film. I didn't know it was an 80s movie because... everything that I had seen as far as clips made me think it was probably too early. It looks like it's from the 70s and that mostly played out, but that's fine because the 80s are certainly a thing and you see movies or TV shows now that kind of try to take advantage of nostalgia from that decade, but it's nice to see movie from the 80s that doesn't feel it doesn't feel like it's a product like this movie stands alone and you can watch it and enjoy it regardless

SPEAKER_04:

I feel like we've done you know we're at like a we're just under like 150 films at this point which is kind of crazy but we've done enough and And we've seen enough that I think that you can kind of divide the 80s. And maybe you could do this with other decades. I'm just maybe not as like familiar with them. But you can divide up the 80s kind of into thirds where it's like 1980 to like– maybe 83, the films almost feel more like the 70s.

SPEAKER_02:

They're not full 80s yet. They're not full

SPEAKER_04:

80s yet. Although, you know, there's some exceptions. Like Fast Times is 82. That feels like an 80s film. It does.

SPEAKER_02:

It feels like an 80s film because looking back, that's like how people have defined

SPEAKER_04:

that.

SPEAKER_02:

So it almost like created part of that perception.

SPEAKER_04:

But like I'll just say very early 80s feel... a lot in a lot of ways, like very late seventies.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And then I think the way that people have like, you know, tapped into the nostalgia of the eighties, we're really tapping into like 83 to like 87 kind of with like, that's what I think you think of.

SPEAKER_02:

Just like the way the characters are, are like talking and dressed, like the, the costuming and everything has like a, that look to it.

SPEAKER_04:

And then the very late eighties, like if you're even thinking about, you know, I mean, this isn't a good example because it's

SPEAKER_02:

excellent

SPEAKER_04:

comic, but like Batman or like now it already feels like we're just into the early 90s with some of these films. Yeah. Or like, I don't know, like even like Feel the Dreams or something like that almost kind of can feel like early 90s than 80s. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I guess Feel the Dreams is one of those where it just feels like it is like its own thing. Like there are a few.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It is

SPEAKER_04:

just in terms of like the way, like the

SPEAKER_02:

much like baseball,

SPEAKER_04:

the visual qualities of the film. Yeah. Because I just feel like there's a certain kind of sophistication that you see evolving through 80s film that those last couple of years, a lot of the films look like they're already part of the 90s. Yeah. But in any case,

SPEAKER_02:

the real difference for me, at least between the 80s and 90s, is just like the huge jump in VFX.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Call to action. I mean, mine in a way is kind of obvious. I would love to know if people out there agree with our assessment of just like the crazy crossovers between this film and Heat. If they've noticed others that we didn't pick up on or if they think, no, no. It's its own film. I don't know how you could, but like, no, it's its own film and it has nothing to do with what man did later with heat.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, the connection between those two seems really strong to me. Like I see it and I'm not as familiar. I know heat into that movie, but not as well as you do. And like thinking back on some of the other Michael Mann movies, like collateral is the one where I just made the joke about like, why isn't it ever a movie about someone who's just like in the middle. That's kind of what Tom Cruise was.

SPEAKER_04:

That's true.

SPEAKER_02:

Like he was just doing a job. Yeah,

SPEAKER_04:

that's a good point. That's a really good

SPEAKER_02:

point. So I guess that does exist out there. That was going to be my call to action is to find me a movie where that was the case. And I just found it. So I just answered my own. The

SPEAKER_04:

stakes have to come from somewhere. So in this film, the stakes come from like Frank's. Reasoning for why he has to do this one big height last heist, which presumably is Jesse and his family. Yeah. In collateral, the stakes are that there's a time constraint.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

The stakes? Yeah, the stakes are that Jamie Foxx's character had given, because he was a cabbie, so he had given a ride to the DA who was prosecuting the case that Tom Cruise had a hit list to kill certain witnesses. Cracked. And was going to kill the DA after... like Jamie Foxx had done some stuff that kind of like led to that all happening. So the stakes were much more immediate. Like, yes, it was just a guy trying to stop this thing from happening. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

But the, yeah, the, the. Yeah. Agreed. So in any case. If you would like to get in touch with us, we would love to hear from you. You can reach out through Facebook, Blue Sky or Instagram. It's the same handle for all three. It is at 80s Montage Pod and 80s is 80S.

SPEAKER_02:

It is.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay. Sneak peek.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, God. What is it? I don't know. Well, the clue. Oh, is there a clue? Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

The clue is that for the first time this season, we are doing a film with a guest.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04:

Do you know what film we were doing with the guest? I did.

SPEAKER_02:

I did. Yeah. And in

SPEAKER_04:

fact, I brought up the director. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

that's not. Earlier. We talked about so many directors.

SPEAKER_04:

We did. But I was like, oh, how funny that Michael Mann produced on this guy's film.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, man. And

SPEAKER_04:

the film was The Aviator. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Scorsese. Uh-huh. Scorsese.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So not the first Scorsese film that we've done on the podcast, but it has been a very long time since we've covered one of his films.

SPEAKER_02:

The first one was Raging Bull? Correct. Yeah. Hmm. I could go to IMDb and look up Scorsese's filmography and then edit this part out so that it would make it seem like...

SPEAKER_04:

It stars the poor friend Jack from American Werewolf in London who gets killed.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I remember that guy. Perfect

SPEAKER_04:

Dunn.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, who? Is that his name? Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

That's kind of all I got.

SPEAKER_02:

Scorsese movies. After

SPEAKER_04:

Hours.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a movie? Yes. That's the name of a movie? That is

SPEAKER_04:

the name of a movie.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, I'm actually... So there might be... I feel like it's a comedic version of... Maybe– I'm not saying it has anything crossover with Clateral, but it's also like I think over the course of a night. I have not seen it in its entirety. I've only seen bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_02:

Now that I'm looking at the key art, I remember. Yeah. I remember it all.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. I'm really excited to cover this one. And yeah, for the first time this season, we're going to have a guest. So thank you to everyone for hanging with us. We really appreciate that of all the choices that you can make in terms of what you listen to, you're hanging with us and we'll talk to you again in two weeks time.