Fire with Fire

With special guest Margo Candela, Anna and Derek discuss the odds of success for a teenage couple on the run, the romantic appeal of mausoleums and much more during their discussion of the Virginia Madsen-Craig Sheffer adolescent love story Fire with Fire (1986).

P.S. Margo's newest book, The Neapolitan Sisters, just dropped on August 9. Check it out!

Connect with '80s Movie Montage on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram! It's the same handle for all three... @80smontagepod.

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Anna Keizer and Derek Dehanke are the co-hosts of ‘80s Movie Montage. The idea for the podcast came when they realized just how much they talk – a lot – when watching films from their favorite cinematic era. Their wedding theme was “a light nod to the ‘80s,” so there’s that, too. Both hail from the Midwest but have called Los Angeles home for several years now. Anna is a writer who received her B.A. in Film/Video from Columbia College Chicago and M.A. in Film Studies from Chapman University. Her dark comedy short She Had It Coming was an Official Selection of 25 film festivals with several awards won for it among them. Derek is an attorney who also likes movies. It is a point of pride that most of their podcast episodes are longer than the movies they cover.

Margo Candela was born and raised in Los Angeles and began her writing career when she joined Glendale Community College’s student newspaper. She transferred to San Francisco State University as a journalism major, and upon graduation began writing for websites and magazines before writing her first two novels, Underneath It All and Life Over Easy. She returned to Los Angeles to raise her son and later wrote Good-bye to All That and More Than This. The Neapolitan Sisters is her fifth novel and her first after a decade-long hiatus from writing. She once again is living in San Francisco. For more information, visit MargoCandela.com.

Transcript

UNKNOWN 0:00

You're very observant.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Well, I saw you in the forest.

UNKNOWN 0:21

Did you see me?

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Hello and welcome to 80s Movie Montage. This is Derek.

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And this is Anna.

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And yeah, this is the reason we're all here. To talk about...

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Fire with Fire.

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Not to be confused with the other movie made in the 2000s titled Fire with Fire.

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Fire with Fire.

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Very different fires.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

I feel like it's hard to say the title of this movie without that emphasis. Fire with fire.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

It's tough. It's tough to... Yeah. I want to say fire by fire or fire for fire. But yeah, I feel like it's missing this key word at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Oh, fighting fire with fire? Yeah. In any case, that's our movie today. And we mentioned this with our... guest one of the very few times that a film okay that sounds wrong it makes it sound like we know every single movie from the 80s it's obviously not the case

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clearly

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but this is one of the few times that we did have somebody bring up a movie to cover with us and it's the

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second time that i can think of where neither one of us had either seen it or really had much knowledge of

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it yeah so that's why it was really fun to get to do this one because it was completely brand new to both of us.

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It was completely brand new and way more entertaining than I expected.

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Same.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah. So you mentioned the one from a couple of years ago, not the one that we are covering. The one we are covering, 1986. Yeah. I

SPEAKER_04 2:10

mean, I think it was like 2012, maybe. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

More than

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a couple of years ago, but

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yeah. So... writers uh we are definitely continuing with our trend of having multiple people to talk about for the writing credits

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yeah we

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yeah i mean there's a there's like kind of a writing partnership so i'll probably go through those pretty quick but okay the first person is mr bill phillips he has a screenplay by credit and yeah i mean this kind of holds for everybody uh who's credited as a writer on this film not a lot to cover in terms of other writing credits specifically but he does have a couple that are probably pretty well known most of which christine oh yeah yeah that's a good one he has that one under his belt physical evidence there goes the neighborhood there it goes the beans of egypt maine

SPEAKER_04 3:20

hmm

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yes. Were they magic?

SPEAKER_04 3:23

Was there like a beanstalk

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involved here? I get the sense that it's like a magical... Oh, you don't think so? I

SPEAKER_04 3:27

don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Kind of feels like it's like a magical thing. Could be. But then he did quite a few TV movies. Okay. So I'm listing kind of his future films, but he did a lot in the TV movie space. Okay. So moving on to Warren Skarn. This was his very first credit. Also got a screenplay by credit. Now, unfortunately, probably hold

SPEAKER_04 3:54

up I'm looking at his credits and I see something that is kind of standing out

SPEAKER_01 3:58

yes he's come up before I'm not sure though if maybe we have it's been a while since we've covered the two movies that I'm about to bring up but in large part probably the reason why his list of credits are not very long in length is that he passed away very early he passed away at just 44 of bone cancer so he just didn't get a chance to you know fulfill the trajectory of his career but he does have some amazing credits under his belt for what he was able to accomplish in his short life we have an uncredited credit for Top Gun

SPEAKER_04 4:40

yeah that's the one where I'm like

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what and that probably came up um that so Top Gun that was early in season two yeah

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I probably had that same reaction

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you probably did what what so We welcome you to go back to that episode if you would like.

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Look, I'm not one to often say this, but that was a really fun episode. It was

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a

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really fun episode. Because we had two guests.

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Yeah, I'm trying to think. We've only done that twice.

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Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Yeah, and Katie and Brad, they were amazing. So definitely you can check that one out. He was the writer on Beverly Hills Cop 2. And then also two other films that we have covered, Beetlejuice and Batman.

SPEAKER_04 5:20

This guy.

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Yeah. Which is why it's

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like

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really sad that he didn't have a chance to do more. But both of those episodes were in season one. So Batman, I think that came about halfway through our season. That was with Tom. And then Beetlejuice we did with Connor. I think

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we're far more professional now than we were back in that first season.

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So are you saying don't go back to those episodes? No,

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I'm just saying if you dare. Sure.

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Enjoy. Yeah. Enjoy. Go for it. Okay. So the last two people, I'm bringing them up at the same time because it's a couple. Paul and Sharon Borsten. Oh,

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the Borstens. The

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Borstens.

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Who could forget the Borstens? Powerhouse of writing.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I mean, okay, so here's the thing. Here's what's interesting is that when I saw, like, oh, it's a couple, I just assumed that probably they would get, you know, know credits on all the same properties Paul has twice as many credits as Sharon

SPEAKER_04 6:27

what the hell

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so I don't really know what that's about if like he mostly did write on his own but every once in a while he'd pull her in for whatever I don't really know how that works out but among some of his credits we have mostly just television so and that's not a bad thing but he worked on the TV series The Explorers he worked on the doc series Ripley's Believe It or Not and

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That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Yeah. He worked on the TV show Fame as well as the TV show Hotel.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

Well, also Heart to Heart.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Oh, my apologies. Did he do a long stint on that? I usually don't include it if it's like a one-off.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

It was one episode, so.

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Still, Heart to Heart, man. Don't discount Heart to Heart.

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And the name of that episode was One Heart Too Many. Oh, boy. And

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then his wife, so she has nine credits, and I mean among the other ones that like they worked on together she also wrote on fame and hotel so

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and also heart to heart

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okay so same

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episode

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directed by a gentleman by the name of duncan gibbons i really hate that this is um in short order becoming a little bit of a theme he also passed away at a very young age he was only 41 um this is a really tough thing to bring up because it actually hits like kind of like literally close to home so back in the early 90s I don't know for anybody who doesn't live in the Southern California area I mean it's really gone to like so many other places certainly not just Southern California but wildfires

SPEAKER_05 8:16

oh wow

SPEAKER_01 8:18

um yeah so back in the early 90s there was like a bout of um wildfires in malibu he actually did escape but went back to get his cat

SPEAKER_04 8:32

oh man

SPEAKER_01 8:33

and he passed so that's why he passed away at such a young age um he only did two feature films everything else really his like wheelhouse was music videos So that's what he was known for.

SPEAKER_04 8:54

Which, you know, for some listeners of the podcast, that was a thing that people watched. Oh,

SPEAKER_01 8:59

for sure. These

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quote unquote, with me doing air quotes in the air, music videos.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah.

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They were on music television.

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They actually played on TV. MTV, if

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you will.

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It wasn't like all of these like. It

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wasn't just a never ending marathon of ridiculousness.

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What's that? I'm a teenager and I'm pregnant. What is that? I don't

SPEAKER_04 9:24

know. I think that is the title of the show. I'm a teenager and I'm

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pregnant. Things like that. And also I'm 17. Why is this on MTV?

SPEAKER_04 9:32

I'm a teenager and I'm pregnant and I'm 17.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

That's the show. He is certainly not the first person that we've brought up where they came up through the music video.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

No, no. It

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is a very common way. It's

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pretty common. Nowadays, you do the TikTok stuff and then that's all you do.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

And then that's all you do. But among some of the artists that he collaborated with, the Eurythmics, Wham!, Bananarama, When He Went Solo, George Michael, Glenn Frey from the Eagles, and Lisa Lisa and the Cult Jam.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, it is pretty cool. Okay, so moving on to cinematography.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

What was the other movie he did? Did

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you say you did one other movie? I didn't

SPEAKER_04 10:19

even list it because it wasn't... Well, the fact that it features Gregory Hines, 1991's Eve of Destruction. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Well, thank you. I appreciate you bringing that up. I should have had that.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

That's okay. It was like, I've actually seen that movie. I have some memory of Eve of Destruction. You

SPEAKER_01 10:43

actually have seen that movie? Yeah. Okay. All right. So cinematography I think I've... brought this one up before only because I don't I don't know why my dad thought that I would want to watch this as a kid have you ever seen Never Cry Wolf

SPEAKER_04 11:09

uh no

SPEAKER_01 11:10

it is it is so not I think my dad maybe heard oh it has animals in it and thought that I would want to see it okay it's this guy who I mean I just have the foggiest recollection of it I want to say he's maybe like a scientific journalist or something like that in any case he decides to just like go into the wild and like I think record the comings and goings of the wolves I don't know

SPEAKER_04 11:41

did he ever cry wolf

SPEAKER_01 11:43

it was not it was not it was not a children I'm not gonna say it wasn't a good movie but it wasn't a good movie for a child

SPEAKER_04 11:50

so that's saying something for like when you think of half the shit we've talked about watching in the 80s we're talking about watching The Exorcist and Alien But

SPEAKER_01 11:59

that has like, how do I put this? That has like a different kind of entertainment value. This is like a really, like there's hardly any dialogue because he's just like out in the wilderness by himself observing these animals.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

I would say that it was about a government researcher sent to research the quote unquote menace of wolves in the north. And he learns about the true beneficial and positive nature of the species.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Okay, I wasn't that far off.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

You're pretty close. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

For not having seen it, I was like five.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Okay. So among some of his other credits, he shot the TV miniseries America with a K. Hmm. America. He did Honey, I Shrunk the Kids.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

That's cool.

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He also did The Rocketeer, Star Trek VI. Oh, The Undiscovered Country.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

They should have left that undiscovered. They should not

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have discovered it.

UNKNOWN 12:56

Dang.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

He did Hocus Pocus. I can't say that that's like, well, but I, you know what though? I am very excited for this like sequel that's coming up. I saw the trailer. I thought it was really good. Okay. Yeah. So even though I never really caught on to the original, I feel like I'm going to enjoy the sequel.

SPEAKER_04 13:15

It's on now, like around Halloween time.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah. It's definitely become.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

I put it on just because I'm like, you know, it wasn't something that I grew up with. So let me see what this is about. I think I made it five minutes and I'm like, this just isn't for me.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Well, that's fine. That's

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fine. Back to bone

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tomahawk. What? Wait, what? That's not for me

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either.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

So he also cut, or I'm sorry, he shot James and the Giant Peach, a film called The Darwin Awards.

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Oh.

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Which I think is very funny.

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Yeah, I might watch that.

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And Love and Taxes. So that is Mr. Hiro Narita. Okay, moving on to music. I think I remember you being like, wait, what?

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Who did the music for this little 80s teen romance movie? I wonder. I wonder. Who could it be? Has he done anything

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else?

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Has he done anything like anything else?

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The composer is Howard Shore. It sure

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is. Oh,

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Derek. I don't

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regret it. Oh,

SPEAKER_01 14:23

wow. I have 28 credits for him. He is prolific, still very much working to this day. Yeah, he has gone on to do some pretty incredible work. Not to say that he wasn't incredible for this movie, but amongst some of his other credits. Actually, you know what's interesting about him? When I was going through his IMDb, he really kind of got his footing in the movie composing role through David Cronenberg films. So he was the composer on The Brood, Scanners, Videodrome, After Hours, The Fly, which we will be doing The Fly as part of our Halloween series coming up. He did

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Big. Can't wait for that guy to throw up on someone and dissolve them with his acidy vomit. It's gonna be hilarious.

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It's gonna be a great

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time.

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He composed for Big, Dead Ringers, She-Devil, He does Silence of the Lambs, which I think is a pretty recognizable score. I think so, yeah,

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yeah.

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Single white female, Mrs. Doubtfire. So as you can tell, he is like, and I don't mean this in a negative way, all over the place. Like he can do- He

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can do it all.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

The like body horror stuff that Cronenberg is so well known for. He can do really kind of campy films like She-Devil. He can do kind of more straight. I don't, I know a lot of people think of Silence of the Lambs Silence of the Lambs is a horror. I really kind of think of it as more of a thriller.

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Suspense, crime, thriller,

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drama. I mean, what happens in the film is horrific, so there's a case to be made.

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There's always a case to be made when someone gets their face ripped off and worn by someone else.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. Among... Let me... Because I got a lot more credits for this guy. He did Philadelphia, Ed Wood, Seven, That Thing You Do, The Game, Dogma, and now... I'm guessing this is the reason. Well, did you recognize any of those other characters? Because right away you were like, oh, the guy who did The Lord of the Rings?

SPEAKER_04 16:35

Yeah, I recognize him significantly far and away. I recognize him more for all of the work he did with all of the Lord of the Rings movies, and then he was also involved in the unnecessarily lengthy Hobbit trilogy. And

SPEAKER_01 16:51

I have those on

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here. The music for Lord of the Rings is just amazing. You can put it up against anything that you would have heard in any of the Star I mean, it's that that score is just great. So when his name popped up in the opening credits of Fire with Fire, it definitely like took me back.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Okay. Yeah. And I mean, he's an Oscar winning composer. He won best original score for the Fellowship of the Ring.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

When I saw his name come up in those credits, I knew that we were going to be in for an epic journey through the woods. And I wasn't disappointed. You get that.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Okay. So then he does, obviously, the other two. He does The Two Towers. He does The Return of the King, for which he, again, gets Best Original Score and Best Original Song.

SPEAKER_04 17:42

He should have got something just for, like, scoring a seven-hour movie. Right?

SPEAKER_01 17:46

In between The Two Towers and Return of the King, he does Gangs of New York. I think that's a film we both really like a lot. Yeah. And, yeah, it seems like then he begins to kind of team up with Scorsese quite a bit because he does Gangs of New York He does The Aviator and he does The Departed, as well as he gets an Oscar nom for Hugo. So that's all Scorsese's work. And to your point, he did all the Hobbit movies. So he did An Unexpected Journey, The Desolation of Smaug. Smaug. Smaug. And The Battle of the Five Armies. And after that, he does Spotlight. So that's just a little sprinkling of 28 credits.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

I think it's unusual, like... I can only think of a couple other movies we've covered where the composer might be one of the most recognizable names.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Well, I think you're right. I think that actually there's a strong case to be made for that. But coming up right behind him is the editor on this film. So, I mean, maybe a lot of people don't look at editors as like for name recognition. But this guy has done a ton, Peter E. Berger. So he has had his foot in both. Both TV and film. He did a ton of like TV movies, but he's also done a ton of huge films. So he cut The Last Married Couple in America.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Oh God, book two.

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Man, those movies.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Mommy Dearest. That's one that is technically like an option for us to do in the future. And I'd like to actually.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Mommy Dearest, parenthetical, no more wire hangers.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

No more wire hangers. He did Staying Alive. He also, he did actually, he gets into the Star Trek world and he stays there. I mean, he flips back and forth, but he always comes back. So he did Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

Solid movie. Includes whales. Transparent aluminum. Great movie.

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He does Fatal Attraction, Less Than Zero. Then he comes back for Star Trek V.

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Start going in some bad directions here, but okay. It's not his fault.

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He does Dead Again. That's a very good film. He cut Hocus Pocus.

SPEAKER_05 20:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah. What a Hocus Pocus connection with Fire with Fire. Yeah. So, I mean, I find this really interesting because, I don't know, maybe a director, composer, I could see people like that coming back to the same properties. It feels a little less common that an editor would come back to the same properties, but he also worked on Star Trek Generations and Star Trek Insurrection.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Both solid. When they went to the full-feature movies with Picard, the Next Generation cast, and we started making some changes for the better.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Okay. Yeah. He did Save the Lost Dance, Clockstoppers, Coach Carter, and most recently, Alvin and the Chipmunks. Hmm. Okay, we're at the stars of this show. Movie.

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Film. How dare you?

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Flick. So, okay, so this is funny because I think we have have the same issue when... So

SPEAKER_04 21:02

this movie stars Stephen Dorff. Wait,

SPEAKER_01 21:06

no, it's Craig Sheffer. Craig Sheffer. You need to be mindful that you keep doing this with these films between Susan Sarandon and Stephen Dorff. They know what they've been in. Okay. They know.

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Moving

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on. He plays Joe. Joe is the young... I guess you would say misunderstood. They're both misunderstood. Both leads are misunderstood. Everyone

SPEAKER_04 21:33

in this movie is misunderstood except for two people. D.B. Sweeney, we understand him to be a jerk and he kind of is. And they're like boss guy. We understand him to be a jerk and he is. Everyone else, not sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah. So he is a young man who is sent to this like juvenile correction center. I mean, it's kind of ridiculous that things that some of those guys are in for it's not like murder or rape or any of those like warranted type of crimes it's like oh i what do you do he drove a car into a store or something i mean not not a great thing to do no

SPEAKER_02 22:12

no

SPEAKER_01 22:12

but we don't recommend it we don't endorse weird anyway so yeah i mean he's a familiar face he's definitely uh to to people who are fans of 80s films in particular teen films from the 80s he is the bad guy in some kind of wonderful we covered that uh early-ish in season two yeah

SPEAKER_04 22:39

so i liked him better as the uh good guy he was yeah he was so over the top as the uh villain i mean he was a great 80s 80s villain in some kind of wonderful but he was he was a good protagonist

SPEAKER_01 22:52

he was uh it's interesting because this film precedes some kind of one I mean, by like a year, but it's really interesting to me because this feels very much like his like first, one of his very, it is one of his like very first credits. By the time he gets to some kind of wonderful... he seems much more like at ease like there is a kind of like early actor vibe to him in this film if that makes any sense a little

SPEAKER_04 23:26

bit

SPEAKER_01 23:27

yeah but in any case so among his credits we have voyage of the rock aliens nice that was then this is now the aforementioned some kind of wonderful he does the voice of mick another bad guy in the tv series of teen wolf so not not the one that's like i think it already is off the air i think but it like came back i think to mtv

SPEAKER_04 23:53

i had no idea that there was a teen wolf tv series in the 80s what

SPEAKER_01 24:00

what i want to say was animated because he he was doing

SPEAKER_04 24:04

oh okay i do remember that i remember that

SPEAKER_01 24:06

he was in nightbreed eye of the storm oh he's really good in this film a river runs through it i knew you were gonna say that one well is it is it wrong of me No. He's so good. It is such a bittersweet film. It truly is like a family tragedy film. But he, I mean, he's going up. I mean, Brad Pitt was still very early in his career. But him, Brad Pitt, and Tom Skerritt, oh.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

What

SPEAKER_01 24:39

a dreamy movie. It's such a great movie. He was in Fire in the Sky as well as Fire on the Amazon. Lots of fires.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

Not to be confused with fire with fire. This is fire in the sky and fire on what now? The Amazon?

SPEAKER_01 24:54

I just, I don't know why I was even thinking about the title of this movie, but yeah, he's in fire with fire, fire in the sky, fire on the Amazon. The

SPEAKER_04 25:01

title of this episode is Craig Sheffer Schaefer and his fiery IMDb credits.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

He was in Sleep With Me, Double Take, Shadow of a Doubt, Turbulence 2, Fear of Flying.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

Yeah, that'll do it. Look, turbulence will give you a fear of flying so

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yes it will

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this all makes

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sense don't don't enjoy it

SPEAKER_04 25:21

great title

SPEAKER_01 25:22

he was in deep core berserker hmm i just like that name uh he i mean so everything i've listed so far all film work but more recently he has pivoted into tv he was on one tree hill uh another film destruction los angeles nice and then he's been on the tv show american horror story as Richard Nixon

SPEAKER_04 25:49

well that's weird

SPEAKER_01 25:50

isn't that crazy that is

SPEAKER_04 25:52

wild yeah

SPEAKER_01 25:54

okay so moving on to our female lead Virginia Madsen she plays Lisa and yeah she's another figure that I think is well I can't say that I really associate her a lot with 80s films more so like early 90s I

SPEAKER_04 26:13

think of her as the person who I thought was in Crocodile Dundee And then I think of her as being in Sideways and Candyman.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah. Yep. Candyman and Sideways. Yeah. And she's fantastic in both. But she's been in a ton. I mean, her early work, she was in Class, Electric Dreams. She was in the original Dune.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

Oh, really? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Okay. Yep. Zombie High.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Like, are these zombies high or is this a school for zombies?

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Oh, I thought it was. I didn't really do any deep dive into it, but I thought of it as. Like a high school zombie high?

SPEAKER_04 26:49

I mean, that's probably right.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Hot to Trot, Heart of Dixie. We brought this up a couple episodes ago. We didn't cover this film, but she's in Highlander 2, The Quickening.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

Yeah, we can't cover it technically because it's in the 90s. Sorry, we can't cover any more Highlander movies. There can be only one. Wow. Okay. Moving on.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Moving on. So, yes, the aforementioned Candyman, fantastic film. And she's great in it. She was in The Prophecy, Ghost of Mississippi, The Rainmaker, Ballad of the Nightingale. She has done TV work. I mean, again, everything I've mentioned so far, film work. But she was on the TV show Frasier for a while. She was in the film The Haunting. She goes back to TV for American Dreams. But from here on out, like a little bit later in her career, she kind of switches back and forth. So she's in the films. Nobody knows anything.

SPEAKER_04 27:45

Boy, ain't that the truth.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

As well as Sideways. Love that movie. We have that movie. The Astronaut Farmer. She was on the TV show Smith. The film The Haunting. So she was in The Haunting and then The Haunting in Connecticut. I just find that interesting. The TV show Scoundrels. And then just TV, TV, TV. Witches of East End. American Gothic. Designated Survivor. Swamp Thing. And then besides all these shows where she had like a recurring role, just a lot of TV appearances. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So this gentleman has come up not too long ago. He, so John Pulido, he, so to your point earlier, he plays the guy who's just credited as boss.

SPEAKER_04 28:35

He's such a piece of shit in this movie. He's awful. But great acting.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Great acting. But

SPEAKER_04 28:40

holy fuck, this guy is awful.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Yeah. No, he, um, I mean, his character. He's awful. His character is a little bit of a, I think almost a caricature. Of

SPEAKER_04 28:57

the boss from Full Hand Luke.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Yeah, he's like so over the top with just his whole like persona. But it works. In any case, we have talked about him not too long ago because he was in Highlander.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

Oh, okay. Yeah, he was one of the cops, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:16

One of the cops. Yep. But he, so he's been passed for a little bit. He passed away in 2016. At the time, 223 credits. So he was extremely busy while he was with us. And I'm going to quick do a rundown. So like Madsen, a ton of TV appearances throughout the course of his career. I mean, he kind of switches back and forth between TV and film, mostly film, mostly Coen Brothers films. So he had like a relationship with them. But okay. So here we go. Remo Williams. Williams. Oh my God. That

SPEAKER_04 29:51

movie. That movie is ridiculous. I can't wait for someone to put that on a list. Anyone who hears this.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 29:57

Please. Please add it to your list. We are very interested in covering this movie.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

We. We are.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Moving on.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Okay. So he was on the TV show O'Hara as well as Crime Story. Some more film work. He was in The Freshman. So here we go. Miller's Crossing. Barton Fink. The Rocketeer. Hudsucker Proxy. The Crow. The Big Lebowski, Stuart Little, The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle. He does more TV. He's on The Chronicle. He was in the 2005 film The Honeymooners.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Who

SPEAKER_04 30:32

was he?

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Oh, gosh. I don't know. Are you looking that up?

SPEAKER_04 30:38

No, I can't even find it. He's done so many things, there's no way I'd find

SPEAKER_01 30:43

it. So he's an American gangster, a TV show, Raising the Bar, the film big eyes his final credit was the is it the maestro yeah okay yeah well now that you brought up he played Kirby Kirby I don't even know who that would be yeah yeah okay all right so moving on to JJ Cohen who is credited as map maker

SPEAKER_04 31:09

we affectionately call him map quest

SPEAKER_01 31:14

so not a ton of work but i mean that's not to say he hasn't been working he was like on and i'll get to him in a second he was on a show for quite a while but like between tv and film work he was in the film paradise motel secret admirer he was in all the back to the future movies yes

SPEAKER_04 31:34

he was

SPEAKER_01 31:35

so he's in one two and three he was in 976 evil i think we're gonna have to like cover that movie because it is now come up i think actually 976 evil part two was like the one that came up but

SPEAKER_04 31:50

i mean if we cover that we're gonna have to cover all the movies with phone number titles like transylvania six five that's more of a uh address isn't that like a zip code zip code maybe yeah but

SPEAKER_01 32:02

is that like a rule you have to cover all films that have phone numbers in there i can't be that many it is

SPEAKER_04 32:09

a rule though yes it is a rule okay yeah

SPEAKER_01 32:11

he so here's the tv show i was talking about he was in the tv show valley of the dolls for 65 up So he was on that for a while. And then a couple more of his films, The Night Color and Almost Famous. Nice. Yeah. Okay. So moving on to Kate Reed, she plays Sister Victoria. So Sister Victoria is like the elder nun that we get, we see most screen time from.

SPEAKER_04 32:38

She allows nun fun.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Wow. Okay. So So... did a ton of work during her career uh a lot of a lot of tv work but she does kind of again jump back and forth so the t she was on the tv series on camera she does the film a dangerous age more tv work folio encounter he she does the film this property is condemned

SPEAKER_04 33:11

oh okay well i love the emphasis

SPEAKER_01 33:14

on that one the tv show festival okay this title i had I put a lot of like crazy titles in because I had to. She was in a film called The Best Damn Fiddler from Calabogee to Caladar. What a title. Right? Wow. She follows that up with the sidelong glances of a pigeon kicker. What's

SPEAKER_04 33:41

a pigeon kicker?

SPEAKER_01 33:41

I don't know. And

SPEAKER_04 33:43

why are they glancing sideways?

SPEAKER_01 33:45

She's in it. She's in the Andromeda strain. So that's a long movie. Yeah. The TV show The White White Oaks of Jaina. And then we have more film work, Equus, Plague, Death Ship. I'm sorry, Death Ship? Yeah, Death

SPEAKER_04 34:00

Ship.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

The TV show, Gavilan, is how I'm going to say that. The movie, Heaven Help Us. The TV series, Morning Star slash Evening Star. That's how they have that. Signs of Life, Deceived. Her final credit, was on the TV miniseries Murder in the Heartland, and then she just, overall, a ton of TV work.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Okay, so moving on to a very well-known name who is very busy right now with a show that I think just got a ton of Emmy nominations, Jean Smart.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Also a nun in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Also a nun in this movie. The other nun,

SPEAKER_04 34:42

the fun nun.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

She plays Sister Maria. I think it's kind of interesting because it's like... after the sound of music, I mean, this is not a real, well, it's like Margo told us that it's like loosely based on a real story. So

SPEAKER_04 34:58

it is based on facts in some way.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah. So there's some way to put that.

SPEAKER_04 35:04

I think that's what it says, like based on some, some kind of facts.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

That being said, I feel like, look, the sound of music doesn't like lay claim to a nun being named Maria, but she's such an iconic figure that it's just funny to me that they named her Maria

SPEAKER_04 35:23

another sister Maria

SPEAKER_01 35:24

yeah yeah that's who she is though now Jean Smart again just a well-known figure I think probably people know her more so for her TV work but she's been in like many films so among some of her different movies she was in Hoodlums Flashpoint Protocol Project X oh yeah probably the first like her breakout role I would maybe say was Designing Women

SPEAKER_04 35:53

probably yeah I think so

SPEAKER_01 35:55

yeah so hugely popular show she was in Homeward Bound The Incredible Journey The Brady Bunch Movie okay she was on the TV series The Pink Panther she was in the film The Odd Couple 2 she also was on the TV show Frasier so I mean look that show was on forever it was on

SPEAKER_04 36:15

forever and it was pretty popular yeah

SPEAKER_01 36:17

you're gonna get a lot of big names guesting she was in the film garden state the tv show the district the movie i heart huckabees so now i yes from here on out it's all tv work that i have for her uh she was on 24 fargo the girlfriend's guide to divorce dirty john legion mayor of east town that was a mini series oh uh big mouth she has she does voice work in big mouth and then the show that i was referring to too that's gotten a lot of Emmy acclaim, Hacks.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Oh, okay. She was also in Watchmen.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Oh, I didn't even add that one. Yeah, she's done a ton. I mean, what I have listed for her is just a fraction of what she's done. Okay, so moving on to Tim Russ. He plays Jerry, who...

SPEAKER_04 37:09

He's the opposite of Boss. He is compassionate and kind of helpful for the kids. Obviously, he's there. That's his job, so he doesn't let them get away with stuff but he's nothing like the boss character

SPEAKER_01 37:23

no he's not he's not he takes him to the

SPEAKER_04 37:25

movies

SPEAKER_01 37:26

he does he takes him to the movies he's basically I think their chaperone yeah for the dance

SPEAKER_02 37:31

yeah

SPEAKER_01 37:31

so he has 182 credits this was just his second film credit but yeah some of the stuff that he's done really interesting work he was in the film Crossroads as well as Spaceballs nice yeah he was in death wish for

SPEAKER_04 37:50

so many death wishes

SPEAKER_01 37:51

the crackdown oh

SPEAKER_04 37:53

that was the

SPEAKER_01 37:54

yes got it title so some more tv or i haven't actually even listed any tv work yet among some of his tv work the highwayman generations more film work he is in night eyes 2 mr saturday night so now we have another uh star trek connection he was in star trek generations

SPEAKER_04 38:16

he's been in a ton of uh very Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

So he moves then into the TV show Star Trek Voyager, 168 episodes.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

I thought this was interesting. I never heard about this when it came out. There was a 2005 version of The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, which I thought was really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

I had never actually heard of the non-2005 version, so this 2005 version was a big surprise. So...

SPEAKER_01 38:48

The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, German Expressionism. Ah. Yeah. Okay. It's a seminal work. Okay. So he was in Live Free or Die Hard. Okay. So more TV work. He was on the TV show Samantha Who. He does voice work in The Symbionic Titan. Okay. I think I'm saying that right. He was in, or I think it's, is it still in the air? I don't know. iCarly. I've heard that TV show thrown

SPEAKER_04 39:18

around. I thought they did like a reboot kind of where she's like an adult now or

SPEAKER_01 39:24

something. Oh, okay. So they have

SPEAKER_04 39:24

like the old version. Got it. That's probably what he was on, like wherever the, I don't know if he's, doesn't look like he's on the new one, but

SPEAKER_01 39:30

maybe. Okay. He was in the film Dick Dixter.

SPEAKER_04 39:34

Dick Dixter? We gotta check this out. Dick Dixter, what's this about?

SPEAKER_01 39:38

He was in Unbelievable! Five exclamation

SPEAKER_04 39:44

points. Oh, I was waiting for a parenthetical of some sort after that dramatic pause. No. but it was just to emphasize the five exclamation

SPEAKER_01 39:51

points. And then the Star City murders. And just lots, lots and lots and lots of TV appearances. Okay. Moving on to David Harris, he plays Ben. really uh is empathetic to him and yeah I thought it was really sweet

SPEAKER_04 40:37

there are this movie is more entertaining and has more feeling in it that I would ever have imagined but those those moments in particular he was great

SPEAKER_01 40:48

yeah he really was not a ton of work um I mean he has been on like has done a ton of tv appearances but uh he was in the film the warriors

SPEAKER_04 40:57

yeah yeah he was in that he was he was in an up to cop rock

SPEAKER_01 41:02

oh i did not add that one

SPEAKER_04 41:03

what

SPEAKER_01 41:04

sorry he was in a soldier's story

SPEAKER_03 41:07

okay

SPEAKER_01 41:08

he was uh in the tv miniseries north and south i feel like north and south that's because in the 80s like everybody was in that miniseries uh he was in book one north and south he was in

SPEAKER_04 41:20

book two does not work out as well for the south

SPEAKER_01 41:23

no it doesn't no uh black scorpion 2 aftershock hmm he was on the TV show NYPD Blue.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

As well as the film His Dying Wish.

SPEAKER_04 41:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Okay. Finally we come to Mr. D.B. Sweeney.

SPEAKER_04 41:43

Mr. D.B. the Cutting Edge Sweeney.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yes. Yes. That is absolutely correct. So he plays Baxter. This was just his second film credit. Baxter. Baxter. I feel like he did get a film he's obviously a very angry young man but we don't get a lot of explanation for why

SPEAKER_04 42:08

we know that he has bad teeth and anger

SPEAKER_01 42:11

it's interesting because they do a really great job with several of the characters I mean we just pointed out Ben but they do a great job with Joe and Lisa in terms of fleshing them out giving motivation for why they are the way they are why they would be compelled to kind of feel like it's us against the world but then they have these other characters like boss

SPEAKER_04 42:37

mostly mostly their motivation is that these two characters are so horny they should be in

SPEAKER_01 42:43

greece too okay okay

SPEAKER_04 42:45

they belong in the greece films

SPEAKER_01 42:47

but then you have like characters like the boss and baxter who again are just a little bit more of a caricature i guess they just they have to have a

SPEAKER_04 43:00

camp thing be like this misunderstood they're really a good guy yeah you gotta have one person at least who's like legit like they belong there

SPEAKER_01 43:09

like

SPEAKER_04 43:10

look you don't have much of a future and this is where you

SPEAKER_01 43:13

belong right now way to give up on a kid

SPEAKER_04 43:16

sorry Baxter it's just how I feel

SPEAKER_01 43:18

dang okay so uh yes he is a familiar face and name he has been working all this time ever since uh among his film work we We have No Man's Land. He was in Eight Men Out as Shoeless Joe Jackson. We just finished watching for the umpteenth time, Feel the Dreams. He was on the TV miniseries Lonesome Dove. I would say, yeah, he's kind of moved back and forth between TV and film. Some of his film work, Memphis Belle, the aforementioned Cutting Edge, Fire in the Sky.

SPEAKER_04 43:57

Also, a fiery career.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yes. So they reteam, kind of, I guess you would say. I don't know Fire in the Sky, so I don't

SPEAKER_04 44:04

really know. It is also based on, I'm doing air quotes again, facts about an alien abduction in the Flagstaff area in Arizona.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Okay, so yeah, so they're both in it.

SPEAKER_04 44:17

He's actually the one that was abducted, I think.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Ah, okay. Hear No Evil, he was on the TV show Strange Luck, the film Spawn, got a couple TV shows in a row. We have C-16F The Eye, Harsh Realm, and Life As We Know It. He was in the Darwin Awards. Oh. Yeah. So that's kind of funny how we swung back to that one. He was in Taken 2.

SPEAKER_04 44:42

Really? I've only seen Taken 3. Oh, you

SPEAKER_01 44:47

never saw the original?

SPEAKER_04 44:48

No, I just saw Liam Neeson spend 20 minutes jumping over that fence in Taken 3. And then I said, that's enough.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

He had a stint on the TV show Two and a Half Men. This one, I just absolutely... love the title of this film, The Manson Brothers Midnight Zombie Massacre.

SPEAKER_04 45:05

Holy shit.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

I feel like that needs to be watched. And

SPEAKER_04 45:08

his character's name is Vic Quickbuck.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Nice. And then the TV show Be Positive, which I think just got canceled.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

Hmm. That's not very positive. Moving on.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

You are on fire.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

With fire today. You set me up for that one.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Okay. Okay, so film synopsis. A young woman from a Catholic school and a young man from a nearby prison camp.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Fall in love and must run away together to escape the law, the church, and their parents.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

That's what happens. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

It's fine.

SPEAKER_04 45:50

We don't know what happens. We talk a little bit about the fact that the ending is slightly ambiguous and leaves them to die in the wilderness, but that is not the point of this movie.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Well, Okay, so on that

SPEAKER_04 46:02

note,

SPEAKER_01 46:03

how about we get into it with our special guest, Margo.

SPEAKER_04 46:06

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

All right. We are so excited today to have both this guest on our show and the movie that we are covering. Very rarely do Derek and I have a film suggested to us where we both are like, oh, we don't know this movie. We've never seen it before. And this is one of those times which made it so So incredibly fun to watch, totally brand new to this film. And today we have with us to speak about it, writer and author Margot Candela. Margot is like another book of hers. It's coming out in just a month's time, The Neapolitan Sisters. It's going to drop on August 9th. And we are just so thrilled to have you on the show, Margot. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We, like I said, fire with fire, brand new movie

SPEAKER_04 47:00

to us. I was not familiar with this movie, but let me just... I'm very familiar with it. I just want to say right off the bat, this movie was simultaneously kind of ridiculous and yet wildly entertaining.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

It was so entertaining. Yes. It was the most fun movie that I've seen in a while. So I have to ask, how did this movie come on your radar? When was the first time you watched it and how did you initially respond to it?

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Oh, You said it was like a hard PG-13 or rated R podcast. Oh, you can go R. You can go R. I love that that's the response. I did see it as a teenager and I think I saw it either at the Eagle Theater in Eagle Rock or at the Highland Park Theater in Highland Park. So I paid money to go see it.

SPEAKER_04 47:55

Well, we did too, it turns out.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Amazon. I mean, it's just, I own it and I've gotten my money's worth, as I told my friend Veronica. It really was one of those movies that, you know, we would go to the movies on Saturdays or on the, I think on Thursdays when you could see movies for like a dollar. So I caught it there with my, probably my sisters. And I think it's a perfect, perfect movie for the age I was at that time, which was about 15, 16 or so. And it stayed with me all through these years. And I would look for it because for a long time, it just kind of disappeared off of anything. And then once, you know, things started to stream, I would constantly like plug it into like, like Amazon or Netflix and was really, really happy to be reunited with it.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

for both Derek and I as well. There are certain films where we have these memories of watching it. And then yeah, maybe it never became a huge hit. And so it just kind of went away for a good long while. Until like you said, now so much is available to us again. Like that's one thing that's like so fantastic. I mean, I know it could be overwhelming with how many options there are for like content launching. But it's allowed us to get back these films that, you know, went away for a couple decades. I mean, this film I find really interesting because... In particular, the 80s was a decade where there were like so many teen films coming out. And for this to like not have been on my radar, considering that it sure is early in both of their careers, but to have both Virginia Madsen and Craig, is it Sheffer? Is that the

SPEAKER_00 49:56

correct name? I always say Schaefer. Oh, I'm not sure. We should ask him. You should ask him.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Both of them, you know, went on to have great careers and I know that like what maybe a year later for him was some kind of wonderful which yeah probably put him more so on the map but given that you're of a certain age and you said this hit you right at the right time were you already kind of a fan of those different types of films that were coming out or did this hit differently for you

SPEAKER_00 50:29

well this was a different kind of movie I was lucky enough my older sister she worked for for a cable company. So we got, I don't know if you remember, you might be too young. We had Z channel. Oh, remember Z channel, Z channel litter. It was, it, uh, it changed the way everything was for me. I was already a huge reader, but I was exposed to all sorts of, uh, foreign movies. I remember watching the uncut version of once upon a time in America. Oh, wow. Watch that again. And I was maybe 12, 13 at the time. Uh, and they also would put out a, uh, a guide to it. And it was funny. It was really, I wish I would have kept them. Um, so my taste in movies was pretty different at that time. And I think, uh, fire with fire just fit. Uh, it's, I think it's just a really sweet movie that isn't, it's not raunchy, right? So it's not one of those eighties, like porkies. Right. Definitely not. Definitely not like

SPEAKER_04 51:34

that. There are way too many nuns in this movie to be like

SPEAKER_00 51:37

that. Yeah. I mean, and they still don't put a damper on the romance aspect. I think that it's a nice contrast to it because you could tell Jean Smart plays one of the, I think her name is Sister Maria. You could tell she knows what's going on between Joe and Lisa. She knows that's a fire that's not going to be easily quenched, you know? So I think as far as where Fire with Fire fits in with me, I just, I have a wide variety of likes. And this one just hit the spot for a teenage girl and obviously for a middle-aged lady. It still does it for me. You

SPEAKER_04 52:16

know what I found really interesting is that it really did give you the epitome of young teenage love where they literally just saw each other and then two days later, I love you. And then two days after that, multiple break-ins and escape attempts. you know it's like we just gotta be together I'm like you just met each other but that that made sense in the context of this

SPEAKER_01 52:43

no that's that's exactly right like that is something that I thought they did really well in the film because I do think that like for instance the dance when he's leaving and she's she's now at tears because she doesn't know if she's gonna see him again on the one hand as somebody you know several decades removed from that age you're thinking oh my goodness you know it's okay like honey like you'll there'll be other guys in the future there's gonna be

SPEAKER_04 53:10

another Joe

SPEAKER_01 53:11

you don't have to you know no need to be so upset but when you are that age yeah that is how you

SPEAKER_00 53:18

feel yeah it's a life or death you know it's love at first sight

SPEAKER_01 53:22

yes and I thought that that was so well done I mean I will definitely get to you know all of the main players in the film but I wanted to quickly before we overlook her I I agree with you in terms of Sister Maria and, you know, her. She was

SPEAKER_04 53:41

dialed in.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Being wise. Yeah, she was wise to like what was going on. I thought that that was a really interesting choice that was made in terms of depiction of that type of authority. I mean, the older nuns seemed a little bit more what you would think you would see in a film where they're stern and they're just not really connecting with each other. with their students they

SPEAKER_04 54:07

were fully leveled up nuns

SPEAKER_01 54:09

yeah like

SPEAKER_00 54:10

they're way into jesus

SPEAKER_01 54:12

yeah i thought sister maria was kind of a very refreshing like pivot

SPEAKER_00 54:20

from that i think she was a she let the girls acknowledge that they were not just students yeah and young women but they were also maybe in a sense sexual beings right but she wasn't trying to shame them out of it i think that's why she's the teacher that they approached with having the dance instead of doing a donation. She

SPEAKER_04 54:41

believes in Jesus, but she believes in democracy, too.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

She believes in fun, Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

And I thought that that also was a really interesting scene because, again, I think I would just make the assumption that with that suggestion to have a dance, she would immediately shut it down. And the fact that she actually listen to them was was really refreshing like i thought that that was it

SPEAKER_04 55:13

was refreshing but

SPEAKER_01 55:14

but

SPEAKER_04 55:15

the idea was that this school basically like catholic school girl academy was like we want to have a dance with the uh juvenile hall center and then and then the juvenile detention center was like well the nuns asked so we have to do it

SPEAKER_01 55:33

well there's no story if they're like like, no, we're not going to do it. I

SPEAKER_04 55:38

mean,

SPEAKER_00 55:39

the funny thing is, is, you know, because I started researching the movie to see, you know, trying to read about it. It's based on an, uh, I guess there was a Catholic girl school in Pasadena that invited a boy's school for a dance. I mean, I don't think there was a, the epic love story that we, you know, got with fire with fire, but it was, I guess that was none of the idea for the writer. Oh, I had no idea. There is

SPEAKER_04 56:04

a summary that says, in this fact-based melodrama. And that's literally as far as I could get because I stopped at fact-based and I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01 56:14

That's really interesting. I mean, I'm curious your thoughts, Margo, on the depiction of the boys' juvenile attentions, however it was framed. I mean, I understand that for the purposes of storytelling and conflict. you have to have that element there because it's like such a contrast from Lisa and everything that she knows in her world. But how did that hit with you in terms of, like when we were watching it, immediately what came to mind was Cool Hand Luke and the depiction of who they call the boss. And so was that an element that like worked for you, didn't work for you?

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Well, for me, I mean, because the boys are not necessarily like awful boys. Right. They might have done some bad stuff and they all look really, really healthy. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so and they're all attractive in their own in the very 80s way. I mean, I think it just plays. It's a perfectly pitched to. I could see why as a teenage girl, it really resonated with me because Joe Fisk as a romantic hero. is complicated, not bad. And he also seems to be very confident and has integrity. He helps out with his friend, Ben, who has that incident with his father. And he's very competent. Yeah. Yeah. Yum, yum. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

So Margo, you were saying that, and I totally agree with you, that the depiction of Joe as well as the other young men the fact that they're like you said complicated and not bad would make them really interesting and attractive to Lisa and the rest of her friends and I think that that comes through really clearly at the dance I thought that the way that they approached like I never caught her name but the one young girl who actually didn't even want the dance to happen

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Stephanie, I think.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

The blonde girl with the braid?

SPEAKER_01 58:40

No, she was a black student. Margot! Her name was Margot! No! Oh my goodness! What a setup. That was a great setup. And so she was the one who was talking with Ben, right? Yes. Okay. And in particular, I thought that their exchange was so sweet and actually showed a maturity for her to now just write him off and actually ask you know what is it that brought you to like this like why are you here and for him to you know he was in such a vulnerable position and to tell her honestly what had happened and then for her to I don't know I just thought it was so sweet for her to like what did she say something about like do you want to like meet my dad or something like

SPEAKER_00 59:30

that no she said do you want to hit my dad do you want to hit my

SPEAKER_01 59:32

dad and I just I don't know that to me was such a lovely exchange because they're obviously from different backgrounds, but then there's that commonality there. They

SPEAKER_00 59:45

have daddy issues. Yeah. I think that's what the movie does so well. It, it's, it's not condescending to like the teenage experience of family trouble and feeling isolated and lonely and trying to find a common bond that goes beyond just like a boy, girl attraction.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:06

Totally agree. I'm glad that you brought up the dance. Okay. Because I just wanted to point out a couple things. I think most of the young men in the detention center were good. I would say that Baxter, played by D.B. Sweeney... D.B.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Sweeney! He was bad. Oh, I got a thing for D.B. Sweeney. Well, you know, I

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

know it was so... Baxter was no

SPEAKER_04 1:00:30

good.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

It was so early in his career. But I wish I would have learned more about him. Because he did seem like the one, I don't know, I don't like using this term, but like bad seed.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:42

You can tell from his teeth. They're like, oh, this is a bad guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

He was so angry the whole time. And I never really understood why. They

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

didn't really give him much. I think he was just, it was a convenient character, basically. He's going to be the jerk. He's going to be the guy that gropes Lisa, whereas Joe makes sweet, tender love to her.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

And don't worry, we are going to get to that scene for sure. But

SPEAKER_04 1:01:13

the other thing that I wanted to mention about the dance was that this was, in my mind, one of the most amazing 80s high school level dances because None of them. It wasn't like this super choreographed, wow, these are all professional dancers. It was the antithesis of Footloose. It was natural.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

Trust me, that's how we danced.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:38

It was great. That moment when they first started finally, they all had to figure out who's going to be the first and they started dancing. That was

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

amazing. I think that was Stephanie who first was like,

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

well, somebody has to go first. She took off her glasses and There she

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

went. Yes. And when she finally, I think he's called the Mapmaker. He's Mapquest. His name is Myron. Thank you,

SPEAKER_04 1:02:05

Myron. Is it really? Yes. He's just listed as Mapmaker in IMDb.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

I don't know why, because he's too cool. No, he's too cool for Myron, but his name is Myron.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

So I loved that interaction between them because, like you said, it was natural. It was awkward, but it was so natural. And I just, again, I was so impressed by the different beats that this film accomplished in terms of like between, you know, we were talking about Lisa getting so upset at Joe leaving, and just the realness of that emotional response to the way that these kids were interacting with each other, to the way that Margo and Ben were confiding in each other. I just, I was fascinated and just totally just transfixed by that, that whole sequence at the dance.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

I think it's one of those things that you do want all those different kind of scenarios within that one scene, because it's not just about Lisa and Joe, because Lisa comes late to the, to the dance. Yeah. I never, I mean, I never, I guess she had to put those flowers in her hair and it took a little longer. We

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

were wondering like what, where's like, this was all of her construct. I mean, she says so all of her own construct. so yeah I'm not sure why she was late but she was late

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

to make an entrance I think

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

so

SPEAKER_00 1:03:31

yeah the thing that always bothered me about the flowers is they look pretty but there's just too much green in the back

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

well that ties into something that I thought was so interesting about like we you know talk about kind of who Joe is and I agree with everything that you said about him being confident and not being a bad kid but being a complicated kid who has like a complicated family history and the way that they set up her character I thought was really really cool like when again you know Derek and I are totally new to this movie and so when we're watching it and it seems like a little bit more so the focus is on him because they're doing this like chase type thing at the opening and they keep coming back to her and once she's laying in in the lake or the pond or whatever there is, I was like, oh, she's replicating that famous painting. For them to even put that in the movie, I thought was, I don't know, there was a level of sophistication, I guess, that I did not expect in a teen film like that. I

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

think that's why it's not a, it's a very, I think, respectful movie toward that experience of young romance. And it does have different layers to it. And, you know, it has the rough layer and then her very sheltered, cultured, almost stifling life that she has. Because I think at one point the head sister tells her that she's her best student and they're going to ship her off to finishing school. So, I mean, she doesn't get to express that herself. That's why she takes those photographs in secret. And lucky for us that it just happened. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

And I mean, I think that going along with everything that we've kind of touched on with the way that teenagers, you know, talk to each other, dance with each other, feel about each other romantically, I thought that the film did a really good job. I mean, they, they put a lot of effort into it. You know, one sequence that I thought was really interesting is when they all go to the movies.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

And. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

Yeah. I remember. I mean, remember you just had the little slope before you didn't have like the stadium seating. Yes. And I think that part. Well, the thing. Okay. It starts when he comes out of he comes off of the bus and he's at the tail end and she's in line. Right. So she spots him first and he's putting his belt on. Yes. So. reason that to me is such a guy thing to do you know like I'm in the middle of the street but I'm putting my belt on and it's also really sexy in a very innocent way and then you know she sees it and she takes off those huge 80s earrings because they were embarrassing even in the 80s. Derek

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

actually you were saying that you're like oh that's like such an 80s look when she takes off the yeah

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

the thing is it's not a costume people used to I never dress like that, you know, but people did dress like that. And she feels silly because she knows she's wearing a costume. So she takes off those big honker earrings and then goes to sit down and she's so aware of where he, I mean, okay, let's not pretend in high school, you know, that guy or gal you had a crush on, you would just sit there with just and vibrate with, with awareness. Oh, totally. You can

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

clock them anywhere. Oh

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

yeah. It's like a, like radar, radar for someone. like that. And then she's sitting there and she glances over and then he comes around the other side of Myron and just gives her that look that just devours her. Trust me, who does not want to be looked at like that? By somebody who you want to look at. Not some random weirdo. I appreciate the

SPEAKER_01 1:07:45

disclaimer.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

Not

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

on

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

the bus. It would be nice. It is nice actually I

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

totally and I clock that too that I mean the intensity of his Craig was delivering it it was really really well done and I just yeah I love that in this film I mean it's a lot of the things that like teenagers do in real life so there is kind of on the one hand this idea like okay well what are we seeing that we haven't seen before for in terms of like a school dance or teens going to a movie but for the purposes of like a film and the storytelling I just again I thought it was so well done them really showing what life is like from two different sides of it you know like I personally I don't I don't know you know as a kid in a like a juvenile hall or something like that if that's I thought it actually was really interesting that they were even taken to the movies

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

but They should have probably bought more than one guy so that, you know, if they needed a bathroom break, someone could just stay there. But,

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

you know, either way. He was handling a lot of kids. Yes, he was. For sure. But he was the right one to take them. That's true. Mr. Washington, because he was actually more, he was an authority figure, but he wasn't authoritative. He was like Sister Maria. Yeah, he was. You know, he understood that these were young men and he was willing to treat them with some, you know, a degree of respect.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:27

Since we brought up the movies, there was a lot more Friday the 13th in this than I expected.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

It was very, I mean, I don't know, like for legal reasons, like how much, I was also very surprised by how much of Friday the 13th, a new beginning we saw in this

SPEAKER_00 1:09:46

movie. They probably had to deal somebody with somebody's friend and they said, go ahead and use it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

Right. Because

SPEAKER_01 1:09:52

yeah, it was like a, something that, again Derek and I both flocked like oh wow they're actually showing quite a bit of this film but

SPEAKER_00 1:10:00

oh I'm sorry you could do that in the 80s you can't do that anymore yes that's

SPEAKER_01 1:10:05

actually no that's actually a really really good point I know I'm getting completely off track but that's something that's often spoken about in Gremlins 2 because there are scenes where you're seeing a ton of like other like

SPEAKER_03 1:10:19

properties

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

and there's no way you could do that today so that is just that is something that i love when we cover these movies from time to time i mean sometimes it's um you know problematic elements we're like well that's an 80s thing and thankfully that would not happen today and sometimes you're like oh that's a total 80s thing you just for like everything's so litigious you couldn't do it today but it's

SPEAKER_00 1:10:45

grandfathered in exactly

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

exactly well okay so we kind of flew over it earlier but we absolutely have to talk about the mausoleum scene.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

Yes. Who doesn't want to lose their virginity on top of

SPEAKER_04 1:11:05

a tomb, basically? That

SPEAKER_00 1:11:08

was...

SPEAKER_04 1:11:08

They took the time to set up all the candles? It

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

was amazing. Joe, like I said, Joe knows what he was doing. I

SPEAKER_04 1:11:16

thought that was why it was called Fire with Fire.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:19

Because that was a fire hazard. It was a fire hazard. but that was such a tremendous scene like what okay so what I find so interesting about this movie like we've kind of touched on it where there are these other elements that you know for instance like the dance in a very different way but like it conjures up like footloose like other movies with similar elements or even just the dynamic between Lisa and Joe where they're from like you know what is the opposite sides of the tracks train tracks or whatever um You actually have that in the next movie he's in, some kind of wonderful, like John Hughes was all about that. He

SPEAKER_04 1:12:00

gets out of detention hall or detention center and he like really makes a life for himself in that movie.

UNKNOWN 1:12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

He really goes on to do great things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:09

He kind of forgot where he came from

SPEAKER_01 1:12:10

though. Yeah, exactly. So there are these other elements. And for instance, the mausoleum scene, I don't know, Margo, are you familiar? The one movie that came to mind immediately was All the Right Moves. Oh. Have you? Has it been a minute since you've seen that one?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:27

Wait, is that the one with Tom Cruise? Yes. Yes, I know that movie.

UNKNOWN 1:12:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:34

And then the other star of Some Kind of Wonderful, Leah Thompson. And there is a very similar, but kind of like first, you know, intercourse scene. He has

SPEAKER_00 1:12:46

his

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

socks on. Yeah. I mean, I love that. so much and i okay so given what you were telling us earlier about the age that you're at when you first saw this movie and the way that it hit you how did like did that feel

SPEAKER_00 1:13:07

oh i was disappointed the first time let's just put it interesting well you know it sets expectations right um but no one you know they're joe fisk is a fictional character um and uh i i think you've seen that in a and seeing how tenderly it was it was you know it was very sexy but it was also very tender it wasn't gratuitous I mean there is no real nudity or anything it's just a lot of like very gentle connected touching yeah on top of a crypt with candles all around I

SPEAKER_04 1:13:48

mean

SPEAKER_01 1:13:49

why not it's like look they had very few options for for where they could do that. I mean, like, I

SPEAKER_04 1:13:57

mean, is it better than a bathroom stall? Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 1:13:59

sure. No, no, absolutely. I mean, like, you know, going, not to like keep comparing it to this particular movie, but like, you know, for instance, in Footloose, you know, you have that

SPEAKER_04 1:14:10

one dance.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

Well, you have the scene with Ariel and Chuck. Yeah. And they're just like in the, like, and that's very, very common where you have in movies, like teens going out to the woods and they put down a blanket. That's not, that's not ideal. That's not ideal.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:32

That's not comfortable. Bugs,

SPEAKER_01 1:14:49

sticks, you know, so like... Because I've always felt that way with Fast Times when they're in like the dugout or wherever they are. And she's also losing her virginity. And it's a really sad moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:08

It is. And I think that's probably more truthful and realistic than, you know, candles. And Jill lighting

SPEAKER_04 1:15:17

up some candles for you in the mausoleum.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:20

Well, there's a couple of times where you're like, where did they have access to these supplies? We're not supposed to think about that.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:27

I mean, I have a list of questions a mile long, and that's not even in the top

SPEAKER_01 1:15:31

ten. Between the candles and then all the breakfast foods that she's cooking, I'm like, where'd you get all this food? Yes, it definitely casts that scene in a certain way with movie magic, and it is kind of a very romanticized depiction of what an actual mausoleum would probably be like but up until the

SPEAKER_04 1:15:59

sweaty guy with the gun shows up yeah yes

SPEAKER_01 1:16:03

yeah I mean I think that that's a good jumping off point because you know I kind of mentioned earlier like full hand Luke and the way that the boss kind of evoked that I mean how did he work for you Margo because I feel like all the other depictions they're very grounded like I really believe in who Lisa is I believe in who Joe is i believe in who sister maria is so for you was the boss like a little extra or did he work for you within like what his role was in the film

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

i think seeing it as a teenager you did i did need that uh you know i wasn't very sophisticated so him as a character being very um extra yeah um and i think his name is douchard he only says it once got it yeah of course his name is douchard and he has a southern drawl. Yeah, I think the thing is I've been saying like, I didn't expect you to run with no clothes on. He's just a jerk and he has to be a jerk because he's the one who, obviously he has issues. Now as an adult, I can see this man has some serious issues and should not be in charge of children or young people. And he's the one who wants to keep, more than the nuns, he's the one who wants to keep Lisa and Joe apart. So I don't think he probably had any latitude to have any depth other than being just a really kind of creepy jerk. jerk.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:38

He's just like he he represents this like cruelty and unjustness and unfairness. And he's kind of like his character is over the top in the same way that they're like 24 hour romances over the top. Sure. Like they seem like they're intended to like kind of match that that same level of intensity. But yeah, he was he he got like this like perverse enjoyment out of inflicting pain on all the kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:07

Well, he was also the represented danger, you know, because it's also dangerous for Lisa to be traipsing around at night, you know, with her virgin vest. But Douchard is, you know, he's a dangerous, dangerous man. And 100% contrast as to the young man that Joe Fisk is.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:33

No, that's a great point. That's like a really great point made. And I mean, he's far more um What's the word I'm looking for? Just devious.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:43

Than Joe ever was. I mean, Joe, I don't think he had any of that to him. They do a really good job. And again, I think that that's such an interesting choice made in the film that, except for maybe D.B. Sweeney, we don't really know a lot about his background and what brought him there. But it seems like all the other young men, it's more so a circumstance of their upbringing. And they were kind of forced into taking these actions that landed them there because they were being traumatized or abused or whatever the case may be I'm actually curious now that I'm thinking about it what is that do you know Margo what what was happening with Ben like so he ran away and do you know the circuit like did was there context that I was missing as

SPEAKER_00 1:19:33

far as like he ran away after finding out his father had been shot by cops by I guess the L.A. PD was up to it even then. It's like a really quick reference that they say that the cops in Los Angeles shot his dad. That's when he's beating on the big water bottle. Bag of water. This is a thing when you clean cemeteries. Yeah. Why did they bring a punching bag? It was a

SPEAKER_01 1:20:01

water bag. That's really interesting. How fascinating that they gave this one fairly minor character such a rich background you know I mean he's admitted that he like hit his dad but then he's obviously super upset that his father got shot he runs away and then you know you just see that like really unfortunate scene where he's literally being dragged back

SPEAKER_04 1:20:31

I'm gonna say that everything about that character and what happened to him is really to give us more about Joe so we see how Joe reacts to him

SPEAKER_01 1:20:39

finding out what happened

SPEAKER_04 1:20:40

and we also see Joe's reaction when he's returned

SPEAKER_01 1:20:45

in the

SPEAKER_04 1:20:45

state that he's returned in so it like it lets us know that he is this like kind of more fleshed out character who cares about this person but it also raises the stakes because we know that he's going to try to like take off as well yeah

SPEAKER_01 1:21:00

that's a good point in terms of

SPEAKER_04 1:21:04

the escape the movie ends it might still be going on I don't know

SPEAKER_01 1:21:10

It really, it does, like this last third of the film, the final act.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:16

Is first blood.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:17

It really has a totally different tone to it than the, you know, anything preceding it. And so I, okay, so, so much. And again, this kind of falls in line of like the way a teenager thinks, which is to say no thinking at all. Like I, because now at this point I do care about these characters. And so as like, I don't know if, you know, this is a big ask for like the first time you watch this, but like, are you thinking at all? Okay. Well, what are, what's the plan? I kept saying that you're watching it. What is the plan? And

SPEAKER_04 1:21:57

run.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:57

Yeah. It's just, so did that work for you in the moment? Does it still work for you as like not

SPEAKER_00 1:22:04

being an adult? No, it would, it doesn't work for me because I want to see, you know, it just, it It doesn't make sense. I think as a teenager, I was content to let them have, you know, run away to the cabin and then they'll figure it out because of course they'll figure it out because they're in love.

UNKNOWN 1:22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:27

So it's not going to get old. You know, I did. One thing I did think as a teenager is, well, where's the bathroom? Yes. There's, is there an outhouse? That really bothered me as a teenager because.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:38

Okay. Shovel and a man-made latrine.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:40

Because that's not romantic. And I, you know, I guess I'm a little more, I was pragmatic even then. And I was just like, well, that wouldn't work for me, but we won't think about that. Cause that ruins going to the bathroom is not a romantic part of life. I don't

SPEAKER_04 1:22:55

think anyone used the bathroom a single time in this movie. I did.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:59

Okay. So yes, that's, that is kind of in line. with what i thought i think that when you're younger your mindset is obviously more aligned with you know these similarly aged characters and it makes sense it does make sense from the way that they set up these characters that they really don't have a plan other than like we want to be together and we're going to kind of just do whatever we have to do to ensure that

SPEAKER_00 1:23:36

But they do. I mean, they he literally they both literally run away together. And that is what they're going to do. And then they're going to I don't even need I did. And I still don't need them to figure it out. I mean, it is a little concerning at the end where they, you know, they're all wet and they are just in the middle of the mountains. And that's not a good place to be. But I have complete confidence in Joe and Lisa that they're as they're running into the sunset over the ridge. you know, they'll get new, new names, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:14

Very smart, you know, and they, I think Lisa in her own way as well. She's very like, I think that they set her up as being very much an intellectual, but I do think she can take care of herself.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:28

Well,

SPEAKER_01 1:24:28

she was very

SPEAKER_00 1:24:29

sheltered. That's true. Yep. But she, yeah, sheltered, but she also knew that she wanted more. And I think that's why when the, the head sister tells her that she's going to be, you know, shipped off to boarding school. We, everyone knows that that's not where she belongs. You know, she does not belong in the finishing school. She needs to live life. And Joe gives her a chance to live a different kind of life. And I assume they're both 18. So I'm down, you know, I think they should be able to make their own decisions.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:00

Well, I mean, maybe that's something that I'm just having, um, you can't help but sometimes look through things through like a 2022 lens because the way that like no one

SPEAKER_04 1:25:11

wore a single mask in this movie

SPEAKER_01 1:25:13

well i mean i feel like for young teens today to literally just run off like that's just gonna end in disaster

SPEAKER_04 1:25:21

yes it's not feasible like it maybe it would have been more than they were in oregon maybe they make it to canada

SPEAKER_01 1:25:29

maybe

SPEAKER_04 1:25:30

yeah they got a they got a ways to go but

SPEAKER_01 1:25:32

i mean we're thinking we're talking like kind of mid 80s and And so I think we're just on the cusp of that's not feasible. I mean, I think that you hear about young individuals in maybe the 60s or 70s, especially during the late 60s when people were still hitchhiking and making their way across country. And it was just a very different world. And so potentially you could set yourself on your own as still a teenager and make it work however I guess you define that but I guess that's maybe where my hiccup is is like I'm just too much of a like pragmatic you know 2022 adult I think like how they do this

SPEAKER_04 1:26:21

I don't think I think the story is just that they got away and like nothing else matters because nothing else matters to them that they were together and that they got away you

SPEAKER_00 1:26:32

know she's gonna work at a diner he'll do some construction work you know yeah they'll pursue their educations and I'm sure they're very happy wherever they are

SPEAKER_01 1:26:40

that was very interesting like because i don't know if i actually i've been trying you know not trying but like so many comparisons that come up with other films i can't really think of another film where it was left and i'm not saying this is good or bad it but it was left so open-ended i

SPEAKER_00 1:26:59

love open-ended endings i have to say and i think as a as a writer i most of my endings are open-ended which okay tends to kind of Some people want a tidy ending. I always said I don't have happy endings. I have hopeful endings because there is hope. Maybe that's something that I took away from this movie and thinking now that it's really ingrained in my psyche. It's okay not to know what happens. It's okay to leave it up to speculation because you don't know what's going to happen. In real life, this does first of all it wouldn't happen and if it did happen it wouldn't end well right because then you have all the pressures of bills and right you know like whose furniture do we pick and yeah it just kills the romance so let's leave them in wet sweaters on the top of a mountain i know she is

SPEAKER_01 1:27:59

shockingly clean for having been on the run that sweater is pristine i

SPEAKER_04 1:28:06

mean the last time um last time i saw a ending like this, I think it was probably Chris Nolan's Inception. So there's the comparison I didn't expect

SPEAKER_01 1:28:17

to make. Yeah, I did

SPEAKER_00 1:28:18

not expect a fire with fire in Inception. But there you go. That comes from watching a lot of movies, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:26

Well, okay, so during this escape sequence, there was a couple things I wanted to bring up. One is actually a question, very legitimate. I don't think I understood what Joe was doing with the rip, like when he was down by the river, but

SPEAKER_04 1:28:42

it

SPEAKER_01 1:28:42

was

SPEAKER_04 1:28:42

very important.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:44

Yeah. And I'm sorry to put you on the spot. Like, could you shed some light on like what he was trying to do? Well,

SPEAKER_00 1:28:51

he was, I think from talking with Myron, uh, Myron, I casually mentioned when he showed him the map, uh, the initial map of, of where the cabin was or, and then they hope the cabin was still there. And he mentioned there were a lot of underground caves and rivers. So I don't, you know, Joe Fisk is competent man. you know, young man. So I decided, well, I'm going to go, you know, put a, like, I guess a lead down there. Oh, because you never know. Okay. Joe's working all the angles, not just Lisa. He really is.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:22

Okay. The effort in. He earned the win. He did.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:28

I appreciate that, like, again, because this was like a, you know, one-off. That is so interesting to me because it's so clear that, you know, you pick up things every time you watch a movie. And so I appreciate that you've been able to, like, you've seen this movie enough times that you can kind of fill us in on some of the spots that we weren't really picking up on.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:51

Because it was obviously important towards the end when he says, do you trust me? And then let's jump for 30 seconds into this river.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:59

I mean, that was an interesting choice because I don't think they would have survived that.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:06

But they did.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:07

But they did. And I mean, we've seen that in movie magic. the fugitive like things like that oh yeah this is

SPEAKER_04 1:30:13

way more realistic I

SPEAKER_01 1:30:15

romancing the stone

SPEAKER_04 1:30:16

yeah yeah there you

SPEAKER_01 1:30:18

go um I mean as far as the police force coming after that they were

SPEAKER_04 1:30:25

aggressive

SPEAKER_01 1:30:26

they were aggressive I I mean that was probably the only thing where I'm like well these are two runaways

SPEAKER_04 1:30:33

let's shoot

SPEAKER_01 1:30:34

them they haven't killed anybody let's shoot them they haven't killed anybody I'm gonna

SPEAKER_04 1:30:37

save this kidnapping victim by shooting

SPEAKER_01 1:30:39

them both I do yes they stole a car i get that but i felt like it was a little egregious

SPEAKER_04 1:30:47

the um the scene where where she was working on burning the entire cabin down but i don't think she did it yet and she's just standing there and all of a sudden this helicopter that's like a mission impossible kind of like that was so crazy dramatic

SPEAKER_00 1:31:01

that was that was amazing well that elevates how you know how their love is in in peril you know that's true it's And as a teenager, when your parents say, no, you can't talk to that boy, that's what it feels like. It feels like a freaking helicopter between you and your guy. My God,

SPEAKER_04 1:31:21

these were the original helicopter parents. It was terrible.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:27

It was terrible, Derek. No, that's actually a really good way of assessing where their emotional state was. One thing that I thought was really interesting, I don't know the physics behind this, but, you know, when the helicopter literally gets above the chimney and is, I guess, blowing air back down

SPEAKER_00 1:31:53

the chimney. Is that what happened? To smoke her out. That's what I'm wondering. Is that what was happening? I think so. And I think that's probably illegal.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:04

It just doesn't, I mean, they're going to kill her. They were going to kill her with carbon monoxide poisoning, at least. That to me, I mean, I think it had to be that over to the top because they were literally on, now they were on the run and the stakes had to be ratcheted up higher and higher and higher to prove that their bond and their trust and their connection was stronger than all the forces coming, you know, to tear them

SPEAKER_01 1:32:38

apart. choice and it is it is a big choice that they make so yes the stakes go sky high at this point

SPEAKER_00 1:32:48

and that's where i think the also that the movie was written by men so that's i think the way a man would approach how do you break up a couple yeah you know how do you keep them well at first you got you got a bunch of cops and you got a douchard with a shotgun and you let's throw a helicopter in there why not we got the budget for it let's go i think That's

SPEAKER_01 1:33:11

why they did it. I'm like trying to get a little bit of that into this film. Cause even like, like red Dawn, another Harrison with like young actors. And so I, I don't know. Am I just, is that too much of a reach or

SPEAKER_00 1:33:53

do you think that, you know, let's just say it's not only teenage girls that we're going to go see this. I, you know, maybe it was a first date movie. So yeah, you had to throw something in there for, for the other half of the, the viewing audience. But I mean, I went with my sisters, so it was, it was, you know, four girls but I could see I mean to me it was a balance of masculine and feminine but with the masculine really honoring a feminine experience even with the helicopter that just you know that was that played into it as far as I think the way the danger aspect of it I didn't mind the helicopter even though I realized you know they wouldn't do that as a kid even I knew they wouldn't smoke somebody out I did love

SPEAKER_04 1:34:42

when Joe just looks at the helicopter and just screams,

SPEAKER_00 1:34:45

leave us alone! Because that's how intense it is. When you're in love like that, that crazy kind of love that feels eternal and so right, you do want people to just leave you the F alone.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:02

I totally agree. It's a very over-the-top moment, but I do think that is how would teenagers respond that's like just let us do our own thing I one thing that I thought something you said that was really fascinating when you talk about kind of the balance of feminine and masculine something that kind of sparked for me when you mentioned that is just you know I think okay like so let's pretend that this movie is getting made today I feel pretty confident in saying that somebody along the way as it's going through development would be like you you have to have some kind of confidence between Lisa and Joe like you get they have to have a fight yeah or falling out or a misunderstanding or something

SPEAKER_04 1:35:49

no time no time I

SPEAKER_01 1:35:53

love that I actually thought that again this movie just kept surprising me because between them just being in alignment that to me did not I know that they're always saying you gotta have conflict you gotta have conflict and that's usually why those notes come along but I like that they were just

SPEAKER_00 1:36:10

In love. Period. Yeah. 100% from first sight.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:15

Yeah. Their infatuation with each other had not yet gotten to a level where they could even have a first fight. So it was just the world against them.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:23

Where he's like, you overcooked the bacon. Or... She did. She did. I thought, you know, just as a total side note, I think that they did do a lot of really great little things in the the film. Like you mentioned earlier, the fact that Lisa is a very sheltered individual, the fact that she didn't know how to scramble eggs

SPEAKER_04 1:36:45

or crack an egg. She could barely get those eggs in the pan.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:48

Yeah. Yeah. I thought that that like those little touches. She was trying for

SPEAKER_04 1:36:52

the, for like the professional one handed crack. Just use both hands.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:56

Yeah, it was. It was. I mean, maybe that's just how, uh, how like, you know, unfamiliar she was.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:04

Well, I think it also brings up, and this is maybe a very, you know, simplistic teenage girl thing. She's a lot less experienced than Joe is. And that's why Joe is so appealing because Joe at that moment is down, you know, in the, in the river, you know, exploring escape routes because Joe's thinking ahead and she's learning how to crack eggs. And I think as a young girl, you do want to be like I guess let's go this goes back to I get I don't know if I can mention this uh Twilight right I never got why Twilight was a thing until I read it and I realized it totally feeds into the I can be vulnerable and inexperienced and there is somebody there who knows what they're doing and in this case she didn't know how to crack an egg uh but she sure did know how to crack Joe's eggs right

SPEAKER_02 1:38:01

Amazing. Well done.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:03

They have chemistry. I think they have chemistry just as, you know, they have true chemistry. And you could tell. The one scene, even the mausoleum scene is whatever. For me, the one that really tickles my pickle is when he breaks into the school and shows up at a room.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:23

Yes! There is for sure some pickle tickling going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:31

That was actually really intense. I, again, that surprised me about the movie. I mean, I think your earlier statement about how there's never really anything egregious shown.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:44

We're like, how far is this

SPEAKER_04 1:38:45

going to go

SPEAKER_01 1:38:45

right here?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:45

It's so sensual. It is such a sensual scene. It's like, who does not want to be kissed like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:53

And I felt like it rang so true to, you know, just the way that, I don't want to make these like sweeping stereotypes but like the way that a teenage boy might act in that moment and versus a teenage girl where like she's obviously into it but she is like like he's not supposed to be there her roommate is right there you know and yeah I know I know but she's like you know is like want wanting to go along I don't think in any way shape or form he's making her do anything she doesn't want to do but she is the one who kind of puts the brakes on it you know and um that was but and you can just see like he's still just like a horny guy like he just wants you know he I think absolutely does love her and cares about her as much as somebody his age would this movie is hornier

SPEAKER_04 1:39:43

than Grease 2 it

SPEAKER_01 1:39:44

is I mean we're just like throwing down the comparisons yeah but yes that I'm so glad you brought up that scene because I very much was like wow okay then like it was let's watch that again They would probably wear out some people's VHS tapes back in the day. But, um, that, yes. They, so overall, like, I thought that just this depiction of teenage love was done really well. Like, I think it's, and it's not meant to detract from the relationship, but I think, Derek, you said earlier, like, infatuation.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:26

Yeah, I mean, a lot of, like, these, like, teen movies almost, like, age up the main characters where they where they act more adult-ish than like certainly teens did when I was a teen this is actually more accurate where it's just like this is all like stupid kind of like what you are doing yeah but that's what you would do as a teenager

SPEAKER_01 1:40:50

yeah

SPEAKER_04 1:40:50

that's that like it kind of captures that like feeling

SPEAKER_01 1:40:53

yeah

SPEAKER_04 1:40:54

that you have so

SPEAKER_01 1:40:55

well I think that brings us to a great like kind of final question because this is this has been a great conversation and Given that, you know, we said so early at the top of our chat that this came out in an era where there were a lot of teen films coming out. And I'm just curious, like for you, Margo, the fact that this has become, like, if it's fair to say, a beloved film. Yes. And you were of like a certain age watching it when all these other movies were coming out. What do you think it is about this particular film that stuck with you in a way that maybe other teen films of that era have not?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:31

I think because it didn't treat it as a joke. It didn't treat their, their attraction to each other or even what they did as improbable as what they did. It wasn't done for laughs. It was very respectfully and with a certain amount of vulnerability and tenderness, you know, it was, it's a story about love at first sight and what someone would do to protect that love and the person that they love. And, you know, Craig Schaefer and Virginia Madsen were just, were perfect. Perfect. I couldn't, I would hope, I mean, you know, if the movie gets more attention, great. I hope they don't remake it because they would ruin it. You can't do that now.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:16

See where they ended up 35 years later. That actually would be kind of

SPEAKER_04 1:42:19

interesting. We got to Cobra Kai this thing

SPEAKER_00 1:42:22

up. Yeah. Well, I would be interested in seeing that, but I wouldn't be interested in seeing a remake.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:28

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:29

No, because that's going to

SPEAKER_04 1:42:30

be like some guy's like hacking into a system to do something no I just want him breaking into the nunnery

SPEAKER_00 1:42:36

yeah you have to go real low tech on this

SPEAKER_01 1:42:43

no I agree with you I think that that's really well said that they there is a sincerity to the film and I mean don't get me wrong like I I do really love like John Hughes films and I have a particular fondness 14 films in in general of this era but I do think that this hits in a different way I mean I think that maybe actually a film like All the Right Moves who like that film also did not get a ton of attention hits in the same way where they really I think give a lot of respect to their teenage leads and treat them as like human beings and yeah then there's not a you know there's not like a um soundtrack to help carry the story I'm sorry

SPEAKER_04 1:43:42

the guy who put together the soundtracks for the Lord of the Rings movies

SPEAKER_01 1:43:46

well that's a score

SPEAKER_04 1:43:47

well

SPEAKER_01 1:43:48

I mean just in terms of like you know John Hughes and again like it look every filmmaker they bring something different to the table that I think as a whole enriches you know cinema but like that was very much a staple of John Hughes films where you had all these like really of the moment trendy songs you

SPEAKER_04 1:44:06

probably couldn't get Howard Shore or

SPEAKER_01 1:44:07

or like comedy or like comedy in general like you know for all the more serious moments of fast times there's a lot of like really broad humor that balances it out and this just really sticks to a love story a

SPEAKER_00 1:44:22

love story it's it's very sweet there i don't think there are actually anything funny happens no there's one there's no comedy what is funny when

SPEAKER_04 1:44:31

she sneaks out to the cemetery and she's like

SPEAKER_00 1:44:34

okay

SPEAKER_04 1:44:37

And we were like,

SPEAKER_01 1:44:39

what? Hello, young man. That was a good one. Good recreation of that. That was the only time where I

SPEAKER_04 1:44:48

legitimately laughed. I'm like, that was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:50

Yeah, you're right. It's just, it's really a straight love story. And which, okay, final comparison. Maybe there's not a more, like, can't top this one. Romeo and

SPEAKER_00 1:45:02

Juliet.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:05

Your crypts. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Who doesn't want to get romantic?

SPEAKER_04 1:45:12

This is a very far-crossed lover kind

SPEAKER_00 1:45:15

of story. Yeah. And they were probably thinking about that. I bet you that. I mean, other than it being a very sheltered, convenient place that he obviously had the keys to. You

SPEAKER_04 1:45:27

just replaced the Capulets and the

SPEAKER_02 1:45:31

Montagues.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:32

Yeah, you replaced them with the Catholics and the Delinquents. Honor Campbell yeah yeah

SPEAKER_01 1:45:41

no that's that's uh layered it really is it really is

SPEAKER_04 1:45:47

surprisingly

SPEAKER_01 1:45:48

is it is and honestly like you know look we have a great time with all of our guests because you know we're either revisiting a much beloved film or something that it's just been a while since we've seen it but this this is again not as common for us and so it It really was so much fun to be introduced to this film by you. And I really enjoyed it. I mean, I'm happy that both Madsen and Schaefer have gone

SPEAKER_00 1:46:22

on. I always call him Craig Schaefer. That's what it is. Call me up, Craig. Let me know how to pronounce your

SPEAKER_01 1:46:29

name. Decisiveness on how to say it. I love that they've gone on to have great careers. But even if that weren't the case, they did such a spectacular job. in this film and i mean and the supporting characters i mean like i love seeing and you know younger jean smart like she did phenomenal in it um i really actually think that jj cone the you know myron map maker um he did a great job ben did a great like like it really was a very sweet and well done film so just thank you

SPEAKER_00 1:47:05

for welcome my i truly truly my pleasure and my pleasure to share something and hopefully get more eyeballs on it yeah it's a very sweet tender hot movie

SPEAKER_01 1:47:19

it deserves it I hope it does too so well I mentioned this when we were doing our introduction that I'm so so stoked for you I'm so excited for this happening you have a new book coming out and so I was wondering if you just wanted to share with our listeners, you know, what it's about, where they can find it, maybe where they can find you online.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:43

Well, I have a website. So margocandela.com. And, you know, I'm all over, I'm deep, deep into marketing right now. The Neapolitan Sisters. I started it, like I'd say in 2000, 2001, when I was, I was a new mom and I had been working as a journalist and transitioned into writing fiction. So I've been holding on to this book for most of my son's lifetime, honestly, and then recently had the opportunity, was approached by an editor, and it's improbable because there's a 10-year gap between my last book, Goodbye to All That, and this book, and to be able to do this again at this age with the freedom I have now and the book, the subject matter it deals with, it's very dark. But I, you know, I use a lot of humor in it. I'm very, very proud of it. And I, you know, watching this movie and being taken back to a time where I was purely a consumer of stories. And now, you know, as someone who writes stories, it's a nice contrast and it reminds me why I love what I do. And I truly do love this book. And I haven't said, you know, I'm fond of my other books, including the book I dedicated to my son, which was my third one, More Than This. I really do love this book and it's particular and I hope, you know, people will give it a chance. It's been a lot of work and I'm tired. So it was actually fun to just kind of zone out and watch Fire with Fire more than a few times.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:27

And I had mentioned, so the book is coming out on August 9th.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:31

August 9th. Is it

SPEAKER_01 1:49:32

available for like

SPEAKER_00 1:49:33

pre-order or? You can pre-order it now. There's a link on my website. Okay. So, you know, you can get it at Amazon. I think, you know, it's everywhere. It's going to be everywhere and in stores too. So, I mean, I know it's, it's a lot to ask people to, to, I mean, just check it out. And if, even if it's not for you, it might be for someone, you know, who's a reader. And then the other thing I do have to say, I, you know, I'm doing a newsletter now and I had a real life DB Sweeney experience.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:02

Oh,

SPEAKER_00 1:50:04

so if you, if you, this is so cheap of me. I usually just give it up. If you subscribe to my newsletter, you will read about my true life D.B. Sweeney experience. That's

SPEAKER_01 1:50:20

great. Does your website also provide links for your earlier works?

SPEAKER_00 1:50:25

Yes. It links up to my other books. I have four other novels and then I have a smattering of other writing. The book comes out August 9th and I'll be traveling around up and down California doing web stuff so I'm full on into serious author mode which you know like I can't cuss anymore and I can't pull certain kinds of graffiti so I'm trying you know but it comes out there I'm having some fun with it this is to me this is great this is the kind of stuff I enjoy doing and I'm really glad that you guys really resonate you know that I mean I totally just threw myself at you and thank you for not rejecting me

SPEAKER_01 1:51:09

no I

SPEAKER_00 1:51:10

was

SPEAKER_04 1:51:11

amazing

SPEAKER_01 1:51:12

honestly yeah like when when we had first you know chatted about it I told Derek I was like oh my god this is amazing like she wants to be on the show she mentioned like

SPEAKER_00 1:51:20

it was because you're you're doing the movies I watched as a kid you know so

SPEAKER_01 1:51:25

I mean they're the best right like yeah definitely please everybody go to her website margocandela.com check Check it out. If

SPEAKER_04 1:51:38

for nothing else to find out about DB Sweeney.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:41

DB Sweeney. It's

SPEAKER_00 1:51:42

worth it. Call me DB.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:43

Again, this has just been a truly lovely conversation. It was, it was really so awesome to get to talk to you today.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:53

Thank you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:57

Margo. Thank you. First of all, thank you for being a fantastic guest and thank you for introducing us to this film. I know I brought that up, but it is really fun to get, to watch something totally brand new

SPEAKER_04 1:52:09

it was awesome it was great to to like first of all get the the title suggested and get introduced to something that we hadn't seen before and it was just great to be able to talk through yeah so thank you for for joining us

SPEAKER_01 1:52:23

well which leads me to my next question well

SPEAKER_04 1:52:26

this is going to be awkward Derek, would you watch this again? Okay. So with the caveat of it's not the easiest movie to find that this is true. Yep. Yep. So yeah, if it's on, I would, I would watch it again. I

SPEAKER_01 1:52:45

would

SPEAKER_04 1:52:45

too. Cause like I said, it is, it's like a teen romance mixed in with the little mission impossible mixed in with a little, uh, cool hand Luke. Yes. You know, all to the score of Howard Shore. Yep. So it's, it, it is a fun movie to watch. Like I enjoyed it, but am I going to like really go too far out of my way to find it? I don't, I don't know if I can, I don't know if I can say that. I don't know if I can commit to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:13

You know, that's really, okay. Yes. So that's, that's a very fair response. I will not avoid it. We had to rent it. Um, it's not something that was just like available and we have a lot of different like streaming options. So, you know, you'd have to be in a mood to want to rent it again but a

SPEAKER_04 1:53:32

lot of extra steps

SPEAKER_01 1:53:33

I'm trying to think I mean look this movie was so brand new to me I don't I mean I guess if I wasn't familiar with it and I'm like scrolling maybe I wouldn't have stopped on it but I really don't have any like recollection of ever even coming across it here's the

SPEAKER_04 1:53:49

problem you're scrolling and you see fire with fire and turn it on you're probably not getting this movie

SPEAKER_01 1:53:54

yeah that's probably getting the other one yeah I think

SPEAKER_04 1:53:57

it was a Bruce Willis

SPEAKER_01 1:53:57

movie oh okay I don't even know

SPEAKER_04 1:54:00

I just I I I made that up,

SPEAKER_01 1:54:01

but I would like to see it. Cause it, now that we've been introduced to it, it, it has this, like, I don't know, like weird, I don't know how to explain it. Like a weird sentimental value to it. Cause it's like, Oh, that's this film we covered for the podcast. So I would want to watch it again.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:17

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's got some really interesting moments in it and it just like, yeah, it, it like goes off and like starts turning into like these different types of movies that You're not expecting. It was fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:33

But I think you're right that it's probably not going to be a film that you are going to be scrolling and find it.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:40

Probably not.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:40

We tried that. We did. Couldn't find it. Couldn't find it.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:45

I mean, this is really hard as far as like a call to action. Well, okay, maybe it's not as hard as I think it is. I want to know how many people out there

SPEAKER_04 1:54:55

know of this movie. Oh, I definitely thought you were going to say how many people had sex. In a cemetery. In a mausoleum.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:05

Oh,

SPEAKER_04 1:55:06

Derek. And so I'm just getting to the... That's not even the call to action. The real call to action is when you did that, how did you set up all the candles so that they did not create a fire hazard?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:17

So... Okay, so you bringing that up, probably this is going to be a film. I don't know. I am making an assumption here. Sorry, spoilers. That people aren't going to be familiar with this movie, so they're probably like, what are you talking about? Well,

SPEAKER_04 1:55:31

we've talked

SPEAKER_01 1:55:32

about it. We've talked all about it. We go in a deep dive with Margot about that particular scene. We did. We did,

SPEAKER_04 1:55:38

actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:39

I mean, yeah, we talked about it with Margot, but just for clarity's sake, there is a scene where Bleeds, they like... are intimate for the first time, and it's in a mausoleum.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:52

They grind it out in a

SPEAKER_01 1:55:54

mausoleum. Did you just say they grind it out? Uh-huh. Oh, man. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:59

That is a pretty accurate depiction of what you will see. No,

SPEAKER_01 1:56:03

it's not. No? Okay. They're not grinding it out. I

SPEAKER_04 1:56:07

don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:07

It is positioned much more romantically than that.

UNKNOWN 1:56:15

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:16

All to say, if you would like to reach out about whether or not it can be have you seen this movie before or your suggestion about how

SPEAKER_04 1:56:30

long do you think it took to light all those candles

SPEAKER_01 1:56:33

you can get in touch with us through facebook twitter or instagram it's the same handle for all three it is at 80s montage pod and 80s is 80s okay sneak peek

SPEAKER_04 1:56:45

sneak peek time what could

SPEAKER_01 1:56:47

be

SPEAKER_04 1:56:48

my clue this is where we sneak a peek at the next upcoming movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:53

It is. What is a clue? I'm trying to give you a clue based off the title. You're

SPEAKER_04 1:56:59

saying that word a lot, but I know... No,

SPEAKER_01 1:57:00

no, no. It's not. Sorry. No, I'm not trying to do the funny thing. We've already covered Clue. There's not a sequel? No, it's not a sequel. Not a whale, not a shark,

SPEAKER_04 1:57:16

not... It's a fish called Wanda.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:19

Yeah, it's a fish called Wanda. I'm so excited to do this one.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:24

This should be fun, yeah. It's a fun movie. It's

SPEAKER_01 1:57:31

not in any way, shape, or form a spiritual anything to Clue, but what does connect the two movies is that, again, we are covering a film where it is just a powerhouse lineup of just the funniest people

SPEAKER_04 1:57:48

we haven't had Kevin Klein yet either

SPEAKER_01 1:57:50

no we haven't yeah we've had well we haven't had most of the people really we've only had Jamie Lee Curtis

SPEAKER_04 1:57:58

that's true

SPEAKER_01 1:57:58

yeah so I'm so excited to cover this one and just thank you guys everybody out there thank you for hanging with us we know that you have a lot of different podcast options so we appreciate you taking the time to listen to ours and we'll talk to you again in two weeks time